Communism(socialism) ftw

[Newark]

well, rhino, retard comes to mind..."Whats bad about the idea of everyone having everything they need compared to the elite having everything while the workers pay for it?"

I'd like to introduce to you my good friend, "REALITY". What's wrong with your dumb statement is "reality". The "workers" don't "pay for it" because THEY ARE PAID. The "elite" as you phrase it, PAYS the workers. You see, the "workers" aren't smart enough to be anything but - i.e they don't "produce" the jobs, they just "do" them. The "elite" are what smart people call "producers". They "Create" jobs with their ideas that your "workers" WORK.

I had respect for you. Now I don't. Shut up and just comment on strats and Dark elves vs. Humans. Don't over-reach - like now.

[Newark]

dka is so dumb that he ignores history and reality - history has already provided a lesson in failure. What kind of idiot keeps touching the stove to make sure it's not hot? I know! Europeans....don't worry, the US will save you again.....it's our duty to rescue idiots....again...and again....etc

[Nimph]

The USA doesn't touch the hot stove repeatedly either? lol

[SnuggleySoft]

There are many different forms of Socialism. Marx abhorred them all. He did not do it to make his idea "sound nice" In fact his was the most radical.

Btw Europeans... Its not every Americans fault for our ignorance of what Socialism/Communism entails. You may remember that we were in a Cold War, and our textbooks in our schools reflect that. They skim over nationalization, (if you're lucky), then they subtly bash every ideal by pointing to the ex-USSR. After hearing about how evil it is since you turn 12, many Americans don't feel a need to really learn it. I only know about it because my mom was a Russian History major.

Ex: I talked to a guy at a party with a Confederate Flag on his hat, so I asked him why he wore it. He said Because he wished the south won the Civil War. When asked why, he had no answer. I asked him which party he liked. He said "Republican. Democrat's are pussies." I asked what his ideal government was and he said approximately, "I think everyone should work and do their part for society, and get in return: food, shelter, and maybe some beer on the weekends." When I informed him he was a Communist he started screaming and tried to fight me.

[Nimph]

There are many different forms of Socialism. Marx abhorred them all. He did not do it to make his idea "sound nice" In fact his was the most radical.

You realize Marx was a big promoter of Capitalism too, right?

I only know about it because my mom was a Russian History major.

Which makes you just as qualified and informed as her. Because my father is a nuclear pharmacist, I am now a reliable source on all things related?
Also, did she even graduate? What were her grades like?

Ex: I talked to a guy at a party with a Confederate Flag on his hat, so I asked him why he wore it. He said Because he wished the south won the Civil War. When asked why, he had no answer. I asked him which party he liked. He said "Republican. Democrat's are pussies." I asked what his ideal government was and he said approximately, "I think everyone should work and do their part for society, and get in return: food, shelter, and maybe some beer on the weekends." When I informed him he was a Communist he started screaming and tried to fight me.

Your random survey with a large sample population proves your point very well.

[SnuggleySoft]

No, I mean that she has a library collection of texts and essays on Marxism, Leninism, Bakuninism and Political Ideology, which I read myself. If I had only used my high school texts, I wouldn't have known.

He said he supported Capitalism insofar as it released us from the reigns of Monarchy. He believed that our political systems progressed. He disagreed with the fact that labor itself raised the cost of goods and that the laborers did not recieve the part of the profit that was gained through their labor. He disliked the alienization that arouse from industry. Communist Manifesto has critiques of all the other socialist systems. There were opposing camps in Socialism, and Marx was of the camp that socialist reforms was the wrong way to do it, and it needed more radical changes.

Also, that's my most radical example. I thought it was a funny story. I didn't think it was a scientific piece of evidence. I know the dangers of following the fallacy of anecdotal evidence. However, notice how Obama was called a Marxist for an increase in the top marginal rate of the progressive tax, and a huge amount believed he was. Now tell me that's not ignorant?

[Nimph]

No, I mean that she has a library collection of texts and essays on Marxism, Leninism, Bakuninism and Political Ideology, which I read myself. If I had only used my high school texts, I wouldn't have known.

lol crappy high school then. I spent a whole semester in high school learning about Marx.

He said he supported Capitalism insofar as it released us from the reigns of Monarchy.

I am not sure about that. It was more of a support as a necessary step to communism, and in the process it brought about many great benefits and advances for society.

Obama was called a Marxist for an increase in the top marginal rate of the progressive tax, and a huge amount believed he was. Now tell me that's not ignorant?

How is it ignorant? One of the demands of Marx in his Communist manifesto was to have a progressive income tax! Who is the ignorant one here?

[SnuggleySoft]

It was considered one of the best high schools in my state, but then again its a ****ty state for education. haha.

I agree with what you said about his support for capitalism. I was just saying that Marx wanted to get rid of capitalism since he believed it had done much of its purpose and believed we were ready to move the next step to a worker's democracy, and then a stateless egalitarian society.

Progressive income tax is "Bourgeoisie Socialism" I believe. But maybe your right. My friend stole my copy, and I need to find another. xD I'll try and look it up to make sure.

I believe in John Rawls theory of the "veil of ignorance", and I think anyone would have to as well. Or at least 2/3's apparently...

fun fact: http://www2.law.columbia.edu/news/su...on/index.shtml

2/3 of Americans Believe "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" was or could have been written by the framers and included in the Constitution, according to a nationwide survey commissioned by Columbia Law School.

Also I think I put in another post the marginal tax rate of the past. Reagan, Nixon, Kennedy, and Eisenhower were some HUUUGE Marxists... >_>

[SnuggleySoft]

*On the veil of Ignorance:

I kind of over-reached when I said anyone would. I know the ideological arguments against it. What I meant was that I have a hard time imagining anything besides possibly a small majority, (possiby some gambling folks), to disagree with it if the veil were to actually exist.

[RAKIdaRHINO]

Newark
i replied to you in private.. do as you please with my comment, i wont comment in this thread anymore..

snuggleysoft
even though marx may have "abhorred" socialism (or the other forms of it) wouldnt you agree with me on that it was mainly due to his disbelief in their view on how to achieve the end goal rather than the end goal itself? Communism to me seems pretty much like Socialism 2.0 with a radical twist. Then again im not an expert on the subject.


for everyone else:
i dont love communism, i just dont think capitalism is any better..
they both have pros and cons.. unfortunately you cant have both..
thats why i dont like either of them in particular..

[SnuggleySoft]

You're right. Communism is a form of socialism. But there are many forms. Bakuninism is an anarchistic system that would have what marx's goals were without the worker's democracy.

[lolkid]

americans in general have no idea what socialism and communism means. while you, a young country, profit on the poor countries for 100 years and invade and steal what you cant trade for nothing, you have managed to establish a great economy. problem is that any socialist country in the world would be paradise on earth with 1/10 of your resources.

the basic theory of socialism is that a percentage of a countries entire income should be taken (tax) to provide every inhabitant with the basic needs for survival and dignity, i.e. enough taxes for every person to always have a home, food, hygiene products, contact with the outer world like a newspaper, radio, internet or what have you. that aside you can do what you want with your cash. because a country has a socialist dentist plan, free education all the way incl. uni, free health care etc. doesnt mean we dont have private doctors, schools, dentists etc for those who rather spend their money for world class returns. it just means that those who doesnt have any money still gets the basic deal no matter what, because its 2008 and there shouldnt be crackies on the corners when we can send people to the moon.

the idea of communism takes that one step further: push all the cash made in a country into the same bin and the state economists will divide it equally amongst everyone because they're better at economy than you are. this raises many problems, like "why get a good education", "why work at all", "why doesnt the economists give us any money and spend half their year in st. tropez?"

capitalism is grand once you set aside any moral aspect but eventually you will not be able to profit on poor countries anymore and then what? you are going to support your own overkill consumption with fair trades and american products? love to see that happen. and putting aside integrity, health, safety and common sense only works for so long. then you'd have to start taking care of your own country, poor population, class differences, racism etc. and suddenly a load of money is required and you realize that the only way to fix that is to insert a basic healthcare, education and a protection against market failure, wich means the state needs to take care of the basic necessities for a stable economy, you raise your tax from 20% to 30% you fix a majority of the problems and are now a socialist country.

seriously, europe has tried every possible economical model through the millennias. we ended up with socialism, but of course that says nothing to the U.S who shun history. then again you are young :) ive partied in houses older than your country so we cant expect much yet. you're a young lad with muscles making all the mistakes you should as a teen, not listening to the elders. once you grow up you'll get it, im not worried! :)

[SnuggleySoft]

I pretty much agree lolkid. However, we spend a HUGE amount on defense, which puts a damper on what we can spend on domestic issues. Do I think we should spend as much as we do? Maybe not, but it would be political suicide to cut defense budgets during wartime.

[allonons]

The only thing keeping the commies from rolling over your euro azz, is our teen muscle you ingrate!

[dka]

[QUOTE=hsihp81;14197942]Oy... Here's an interesting read.

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/article/...175910,00.html

Reminder: Obama's tax plan involves returning to Clinton-era levels, or 39.6% for the top tier. Look at the historical data and I think it will be fairly obvious why all those arguing that Obama will bring about communism in the US are just right-wing tools peddling their desperate talking points...

Thats assuming he sticks to that plan -- he is not bound to do what he claims he will do when he is inaugurated this jan 2009. And even if it is true -- which I doubt due to the many projects he wants done -- it is more of a burden in an economy that is in the process of collapsing.

Obama even said he will bankrupt the coal industry, 49% of USA electricity is generated by coal power -- this will significantly increase the price of electricity. even if bankruptcy does not occur the price of electricity will go up anyway -- thus making everyones electric bill go up -- we will probably end up bailing out the coal industry.

It is apparent that is the plan; after all Obama hired Al Gore. Al Gore seems to think he is Karl Marx, rallying the youth against the coal power plants that don't use expansive carbon capture technology; despite the fact that Al Gore is a hypocrite, and global warming is a scam.
Obama even confirmed his intention by this quote "We can’t drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times … and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK"
--Barack Obama

As for the other ones.. The inheritance tax has been covered. The fact that there is an inheritance to tax kills that one... And this next one covers a few; having a federal regulatory body does not qualify as 'centralization.' What is meant is that ONLY the state outlets exist. Ie- state media, state banks, etc being the only available option.

hsihp81, the inheritance tax causes people to lose their inheritance; it is the end result that is important, the intended result is a loss of inheritance.

I don't think that is the proper definition of a central bank. A central bank is a bank that has an exclusive monopoly on a nations currency -- regulates the currency -- and issues the currency. the federal reserve even refers to itself as a central bank. In the united states the federal reserve act was made into law in 1913 , however the Constitution of the United States, it is congress that is supposed to have that job, it is apparent that congress gave up the nations currency with this act. This is clearly not what the founding fathers envisioned.

Is child labor desirable? I didn't realize the abolition of child labor was something we, as a capitalist society, should be against... Also, the arguments regarding religion and prayer in public schools go back to something that predates Marx...

Marx wasn't against child labor, it says he just wanted to abolish it in it's present form.
"Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc."
--Communist Manifesto 10th Plank

Just because an argument predates doesn't make it irrelevant.
I'm not aware of prayer in school being an issue much before Karl Marx.
The abolition of prayer in school tied together with the rest of the communist manifesto makes it apparent that Socialism is the type of government in the USA and most of the world right now.

ot: I am mistaken, Al Gore wasn't hired by Obama, Obama did however hold a talk with him on global warming.

[1] on this document the federal reserve is referred to as a central bank

[1] http://www.federalreserve.gov/boardd...f/overview.pdf