Why would Dwarf use elite?

[Ethan]

So, a few are good for turtleing. But, unlike every other elite in the game, I think a dwarf elite is actually WORSE in NW than pure specs. And yes, I compensated for the land that wasn't needed.

So, since, unlike every other race where the elite is a (big) NW saver, the dwarf elite is worse, why should you use it. And why don't new dwarves just suck? (or do they?)

I saw the elite change and said "god no", but I always have played human anyway, so I assumed it was my bias. But when I ran number to see how much it hurts to drop elite from dwarf (looking at that Dwarf/Art thread) I came up with the answer that it was actually BETTER to go with no elites! What am I missing, or did my quick math tell the tail?

Think Different

[Arkangel]

So the 7/4 elites are worse than specs in terms of NW? Well what about the old 6/6 elites? They were even worse and people still would use them. Is DE leet a big NW saver? Is GN elites NW saver?

Think different. Assume that you have 17 military units / acre and want to use 8 def specs and 9 offensive units. All other things will have around 90 nw/acre. Def specs will have another 40 nw/acre so 130 w/o the offense.

9 off specs => 45 raw OPA / 166 nw => 0.27 raw opnw & 0.24 dpnw (and no turtling)
9 elites => 63 raw OPA / 190 nw => 0.33 opnw & 0.21 dpnw (and turtling).

I would use elites.

[Utopia4life]

5offense for 4nw = 1.2 off/nw
7offense for 6.75nw = 1.04 off/nw

BUT, elites are more space effcient, you have to remember that theres 55nw from buildings alone thats just deadweight and the 2 higher base value of offense units from elites is gonna favor that if you push your opa that much higher.


your way of thinking isnt right in this matter ;)
Factor in the deadweight nw every province has and the elites will come out ahead of off specalists, or atleast I think they should. If your not convinced dont run 100% elites for offense army.

[Catwalk]

Your assumption implies that 0/5 at 5 NW is just as good as 0/6 at 6 NW. That's obviously not the case. You consider Dark Elf elites useless for defense as well? That said, 6.5 NW would be reasonable.

[Cheech]

Hmmmm, 40% more offense from elites over specs. I think I'll take the elites all day even if they aren't the most nw efficient things out there.

[VT2]

Anything with an offense of 7 is dead good in my book.

[Allrias]

tell ya what... run a dwarf the same size/pers as me, and i will run elites and you run non-elite... and i'll show you why you would want to run elite.

simplified example:
you at 500 acres and 9000 troops. 4000 d specs for 40 dpa leaves 5000 o specs for 50 opa.
me at 500 acres and 9000 troops. 4000 d specs for 40 dpa leaves 5000 elites for 70 opa and an additional 40 dpa w/ troops home.
result, I can hit you whenever I want and you can only hit me when my troops are out.

[Ethan]

So everyone jumps to a conclusion, which I'd forgotten to state clearly. Of course 0/6 for 6 is strictly better than 0/5 for 5. In fact, with (old) human, 6 for 5.5 was better than 5 for 4, even though the strict ratio goes the other way.

I didn't forget NW from land, I know it is critical. (I mock anyone who thinks pop sci is bad - it is STILL the most powerful, even at .66.) What I did is as follows:

350 OP in elites VS. 350 OP in specs.

350/7 = 50 elites + 2 acres
6.75*50+2*55 = 447.5 NW

350/5 = 70 specs + 2.8 acres
70*4 + 2.8*55 = 434 NW

Even if you assume 30 ppa it works out about the same. So, with the much higher cost, what is their benefit? Why not run a mixed offense for minimal turtleing ability?

BTW, I'm not even playing dwarf, and in game there are way to many compounding factors to make a "me vs. you" type match helpful. This is theory, to then modify as experience dictates for actual game conditions.

Think Different

[Syiss]

You are looking at it wrong. Networth isn't the determining factor for usefulness of an elite.

Instead of taking the ultimate offense value and comparing the nw cost of the units + the land, keep the land static and determine the ultimate amount of military might you can get out of it (Allrias has a good example above). Networth inflation is only a bad thing if you don't have the military might to match it, which is why Gnome's have been ragged on for so long about their high nw/a.

If you have a powerhouse military, theres nothing wrong with having a higher nw/a than others (within reason of course) because what ends up happening is that you have an equal military power on less land than the people in your nw bracket, meaning if you just exchange hits with these people you come out ahead in land gains.

[agesdg]

it is more efficient for dwarf to run elites. I already calculated it with a mock province and mock numbers

despite the elites having a low offense per networth ratio. your province's offense per networth does increase by having them

There is a reason not to use elites, but there's a specific strategy only for that. Otherwise, elites is the way to go

[_greenie]

350 OP in elites VS. 350 OP in specs.

350/7 = 50 elites + 2 acres
6.75*50+2*55 = 447.5 NW

350/5 = 70 specs + 2.8 acres
70*4 + 2.8*55 = 434 NW

That is looking at it the wrong way

1 built acre + 10 pez = 65nw

7 o-specs (35 op for 28 nw) vs 7 elites (49 op for 47.25)
o-specs:35 / (65 + 28) = .376
Elites:49 / (47.25 + 65) = .437
which one wins?

[BladeMaster]

they wouldnt use many.
if a dwf kd manage to grow though they would be able to pump some massive nw if they could afford to draft and buy 90% leets.

cost is the killer. you can survive with the extra nw, but you try growing and warring while trying to maintain leets... that will be the hard part.

[waheed]

to understand why elites are better than specs, one must first understand that theres a limited number of ppl an acre can host

[Utopia4life]

That is looking at it the wrong way

1 built acre + 10 pez = 65nw

7 o-specs (35 op for 28 nw) vs 7 elites (49 op for 47.25)
o-specs:35 / (65 + 28) = .376
Elites:49 / (47.25 + 65) = .437
which one wins?

this!

if people dont get this... wow.. urdoinitwrong! :P
Thanks greenie this should be so ovious no can dispute elites = good for a dwarf.

but you just run your all ospecs if you want.