Israel, it's about time!

[stoffi]

yuk! more propaganda...

Lol. Indeed, swedish priests are world known for their propaganda machinery....

What would YOUR country do to protect its people Stoffi?
Answer me that question.

Sharks may kill more people per year but that is an accident, Hamas is intentionally bombing Israel.

Israel might be taking it too far but at least then maybe Hamas will get the picture and stop all this crap.

Least then if Israel smokes Hamas to the ground this stupid war can be finished with and the rest of the world can stop hearing about anti-semitism and terrorist groups and all the other BS that goes along with Israel, Palestine and Hamas.

First of all, I would bring peace to my country. That is not achieved by creating more war and denying a democratically elected government. Hamas have killed far far far far far less civilians throughout all their years than Israel did in just these 2 weeks.
You can't blame them for being pissed.
If Israel and USA would have talked to Hamas 2 years ago when Hamas offered to recognize Israel and have peace, Israel would have had peace now.
That's a fact.

And Israel is also intensionally bombing civilians, or not caring if there are any around, which makes them the same as Hamas.

Israel can't bomb away Hamas. Hizbollah for example, is now stronger than ever because Israel bombed them.
The only way is through negotiation.

There are extremists in both Hamas and Israel, but most ppl surely wants peace on both sides. The terms however, are something else.
Israel must stop its illegal settlements and Hamas must stop sending rockets.


By warring now, Israel creates more hostility and takes peace even further away, risking to loose its goodwill around the world and the arab world will look at them with even angrier faces.
Israel should praise their God that they are the only "democracy" in the middle east, because the ppl of the arab states want to support the palestinians far, far more than they do now. But their dictators hold them back, and if they were to have democracy, they would turn on Israel.
And that is very likely to happen in the future.



NOTHING justifies killing 230 children in 14 days. There is no justification. It's an act of terrorism and will only bring more hate.

[stoffi]

Yay, and Israel also bombed the NORWEGIAN church's hospital in Gaza.

So, Israel bombed the Danish, swedish AND the norwegian church hospitals in Gaza. How are these hospitals anywhere near related to Hamas? One would think the churches in these countries actually supports Israel since they are hardcore christians.

some of you still live in denial, saying this didn't happen. But it happened. Face it. Israel bombs civilians and humanitarian targets on PURPOSE.

[WolfDGrey]

Well it seems Hamas knew that there will be war at least according to Al-Jazeera TV. Israelis too. So I don't understand why you're whining?

From 18th of Dec 2008:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWHR42DBql4

Both do the same **** to each other, you just need to read the news carefully:

"An Israeli airstrike destroyed a mosque and Islamic school in Rafah, on the border with Egypt."

"Hamas militants launched at least 24 rockets at southern Israel, lightly injuring three people. Rockets hit a kindergarten and a children's playground in the city of Ashdod."

Good luck to both sides on covering up their hidden agendas with a quick war.

[Jobolob]

First of all, I would bring peace to my country. That is not achieved by creating more war and denying a democratically elected government. Hamas have killed far far far far far less civilians throughout all their years than Israel did in just these 2 weeks.
You can't blame them for being pissed.
If Israel and USA would have talked to Hamas 2 years ago when Hamas offered to recognize Israel and have peace, Israel would have had peace now.
That's a fact.
.

Its not about what you would do, its about what YOUR COUNTRY would do. Lets not make this a theoretical question as if you were in a beauty pageant hoping for world peace. Stick to the topic and what your country would really do, they would not sit idley by and let this happen.

Lets get one thing clear, I do not agree with any of this, the injuring and killing of innocent civilians I do not condone and it pains to see that these people are being subjected to this kind of treatment but the fact is Israel had to do something otherwise Hamas would have just keep firing rockets.

Here is a snippet of an Australian website about this issue.

"Since the Israeli onslaught began on December 27, at least 890 people have been killed, including 275 children, and another 3,800 wounded, according to Dr Muawiya Hassanein, the head of Gaza emergency services.

Ten Israeli soldiers and three civilians have been killed in combat or in rocket attacks since the operation began. Palestinian militants have fired more than 600 rockets, some of them penetrating deeper than ever inside Israel.

The conflict has sparked worldwide pro-Palestinian demonstrations, and US president elect Barack Obama said he is assembling a team of diplomats to start addressing the Middle East conflict once he is sworn in on January 20.

Venezuela, which expelled Israel's ambassador over the war, said on Sunday it had sent a cargo plane to Egypt bearing 12.5 tonnes of medical supplies and other materials for Gaza's population."

Now as we can see that Gaza has had a huge casualties compared to Israel but the fact is Hamas are still firing rockets, if they had stopped maybe Israel would have been lighter.

Israel are intent on stopping Hamas from firing rockets into their nation.
Whether that means destroying and disbanding Hamas all together or completely crippling them so they cannot is yet to be seen.

The other thing to remember is that once all of this is over, if Hamas is still around, they will hit back, it will only be a matter of time and all this will start again. A permanent solution needs to be made between the two countries and between the UN (god help us if they get something right). Once a solution has been made they should BOTH be held accountable for their own actions and IF either broke a agreement signed by both parties and the UN, then action should be taken to rectify the problem with the UN's help.

[Nemo]

The other thing to remember is that once all of this is over, if Hamas is still around, they will hit back, it will only be a matter of time and all this will start again.

That's the point. You're giving them greater life force. And peace talks are gonna be even harder to negotiate now.

Now as we can see that Gaza has had a huge casualties compared to Israel but the fact is Hamas are still firing rockets, if they had stopped maybe Israel would have been lighter.

Its not about what you would do, its about what YOUR COUNTRY would do. Lets not make this a theoretical question as if you were in a beauty pageant hoping for world peace. Stick to the topic and what your country would really do, they would not sit idley by and let this happen.

I think they answer each other in some way. What would your country do indeed.

And as for what my country would do, well, it wouldn't do something that would cause it to be bombed. Like say, taking over parts of another country. Even if it was bombed, it wouldn't just drop a few flyers of warning to justify bombing schools and marketplaces full of kids. If it did, I'd be one of the people at the front criticizing my government and trying to change it, not agreeing to it's methods. And I'd be ashamed for the actions of my countrymen.

My country got it's own problems. My mother narrowly escaped a grenade attack which killed two of her colleagues. All those who think there's a problem with my threat assessment, stop making assumptions.

[Mourhelm]

Once VT2 came trolling and made his off topic communist remark at WolfDGrey I thought that the thread will totally go off topic. I see I was wrong...

Civilians are fair targets since most of them elected Hamas.

I disagree. They might have elected Hamas out of fear.

Let's not forget 9/11 and how they Palestinians celebrated the death of 4000 Americans.

We remember.

THEY DON'T GET IN WAY,they have nowhere to go you retard...

They don't even try to minimize casualties. Would you, as a civilian, sit by a rocket launcher knowing it might get hit, or will you try to get as far as you can from it?

Regarding the 4,000 palestinians celebrating 911; that was propaganda, observe this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p1ef...e=channel_page

I doubt it was 4,000 anyway.

You you need to read again kwwww's post. He said 4,000 Americans died.

About that link, that's propaganda. Celebrating with candy and a camera crew is still celebrating...

But as I said on my first post, everyone will believe what they want to believe.

...I don't see anything to identify the building as a school UN or otherwise, and it is not the current incident.

The link comes to show that Hamas has been shooting rockets out of schools for years. Even if it's not a UN school, it is still a school.

You can check if it's a UN school yourself, but you won't do it so you won't have to face the truth that Hamas uses schools (and UN schools) to fire rockets from.

...the jewish people need to remember this a bit more and show they can be more tollerant of the feelings of other nations.

Eight years of rockets is no tolerant enough?

palastine needs to deal with hamas and if hamas will not convert to a political force then they must be hunted down and eliminated as should any terrorist organisation.

Hamas has a political wing. In its manifesto it calls for the total annihilation of Israel.

That war's going to last forever. It's already lasted for more than twenty years, so why would it stop all of a sudden, anyway?

Try sixty years...

It will stop once the Arab nations will accept the existence of Israel. Jordan and Egypt accepted it and we have peace with them.

Innocent until proven guilty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Tg-F...?p=888&cpage=1

For the record I have seen welding equipment that looks exactly like that, being used in welding.

You've seen the intelligence. There is limited time to make a decision whether to attack or not. The fact that there are Israeli people looking into the matter and criticizing what the army is doing shows that we do care about the mistakes we make.

I'm sure the army is investigating that incident. If you think that it was an intentional attack on civilians, next thing you'll say is that the four Israeli soldiers that died from friendly fire were shot intentionally too.

But in the end Israel will not rest until Iran falls ,there is the problem ....there will never be peace between them two Ever Never!

FYI, Israel had great relations with Iran before Iran had a military coup and religious extremist took power.

I'm so tired of hearing news about Israel and the gaza strip.

If you're tired of it, stay out of it. You clearly don't know that much about the situation (because you don't care much). You think you know something because you read some headlines.

Hamas shoots junk at Israel, Isreal kills a bunch of civilians to make a point.

Israel kills terrorists that launch rockets at it to try and make it safer for its citizens. Sometimes civilians get hurt too, but its not to "make a point".

Of course, the problem might come to a close if Israel actually gave palestinians in the gaza strip proper land that might allow for actual prosperity

We removed all Israeli citizens from the Gaza strip. If they didn't concentrate on buying more weapons and trying to kill us they could have prosper.

You know what I always found funny about this whole thing.
http://www.theisraelproject.org/site...997&ct=3887857
In the last 7 years 31 Israelis have died from rockets and mortars.
That's ~4.4 per year...... Sharks kill more people every year.

If you see sharks in the water, do you go swimming thinking to yourself that only a few people a year die from shark attacks?

Sharks don't understand what they are doing, they see something in the water and attack it. If you stay away from them, they don't come to get you.

People on the other hand know exactly what they are doing. Hamas targets civilian population on purpose and not by mistake. Hamas doesn't stay away if you take a step back from them - getting all the Israeli citizens out of the Gaza strip is proof of that.

That's the point. You're giving them greater life force. And peace talks are gonna be even harder to negotiate now.

I disagree. They claim they have victory and more life force, but truthfully the Palestinian people see that the way of aggression doesn't work.

I think they answer each other in some way. What would your country do indeed.

And as for what my country would do, well, it wouldn't do something that would cause it to be bombed. Like say, taking over parts of another country.

Again, Israel took all its citizens out of the Gaza strip. It didn't stop the terror attacks.

My country got it's own problems. My mother narrowly escaped a grenade attack which killed two of her colleagues. All those who think there's a problem with my threat assessment, stop making assumptions.

I'm not making assumptions about your threat assessment abilities. I say you have a problem according to your posts.

Tell me this, if a grenade was thrown at your mother's work place every day and only a few times a year someone would get hurt from these attacks, will you still tell her to go to work?

Will you do nothing about the attacks?

Do you think the fact that only a few people a year die from these attacks will comfort you when she dies?

[Nemo]

They might have elected Hamas out of fear.

I disagree. They might have legitimately elected Hamas. But that's beside the point. It doesn't give anyone the right to kill civilians.

They claim they have victory and more life force, but truthfully the Palestinian people see that the way of aggression doesn't work.

The thirst for revenge is a potent motivation. You are creating a more "eye for an eye" situation.

I say you have a problem according to your posts.

Could you point out which posts you are talking about?

Tell me this, if a grenade was thrown at your mother's work place every day and only a few times a year someone would get hurt from these attacks, will you still tell her to go to work?

Will you do nothing about the attacks?

She still went to work. Didn't skip a day. She's a tough woman. And we did do something. We found the guys who did it. They were put on trial. They killed quite a few people. But we didn't feel the need to throw a couple of grenades into the house they and their family were hiding in. That's cause we knew we were better than that.

EDIT: The attacks went on for about a year, 18 months or so.

[Mourhelm]

I disagree. They might have legitimately elected Hamas.

How can you be sure that none of them elected Hamas because of fear?

But that's beside the point. It doesn't give anyone the right to kill civilians.

At least we agree on that.

Could you point out which posts you are talking about?

This one:

What I'm saying is that the target in that case would be filled with civilians. If you have the ability to lessen civilian losses by going in manually, you should do so, instead of bombing them and killing/injuring thousands. As I understand it, Israel has launched a ground attack on Saturday. There was no need to kill so many people with bombs when you could go in and neutralise the artillery sites. And while you're at it, you could engage Hamas face to face, just like you wanted, albeit with tanks on your side which would tarnish the glory slightly.

You make a ground assault sound like a walk in the park. That's poor threat assessment.

She still went to work. Didn't skip a day. She's a tough woman. And we did do something. We found the guys who did it. They were put on trial. They killed quite a few people. But we didn't feel the need to throw a couple of grenades into the house they and their family were hiding in. That's cause we knew we were better than that.

EDIT: The attacks went on for about a year, 18 months or so.

If I had my workplace bombed with grenades every day for a year I would go to my government and demand they protect me. Your mother is brave, and I admire that, but I doubt she liked the situation.

If the price of getting the guys who did it was the lives of a dozen of your friends would you be willing to pay it?

Edit:
Out of curiosity, where does your mother work (or worked) when they threw grenades at her workplace everyday?

[stoffi]

If Hamas was elected by fear, it was from fear of Israeli bombs. Hamas is a much beloved organization by many palestinians, because they build scools, welfare institutions, kinder gardens, etc etc. But like the State of Israel, they also have a military branch with insane ideas and will not hesitate to bomb civilians.

Mourhelm shows little understanding of what Hamas is if he thinks they were elected because the palestinians feared them, very little understanding indeed.

She still went to work. Didn't skip a day. She's a tough woman. And we did do something. We found the guys who did it. They were put on trial. They killed quite a few people. But we didn't feel the need to throw a couple of grenades into the house they and their family were hiding in. That's cause we knew we were better than that.

That's how most countries deal with this sort of thing. Even the Nazi's were cautious bombing civilians in countries they wanted to keep(if the inhabitants were off the über master race). you can't bomb hospitals, market places, schools and the homes of the family of a hamas member just because some ppl in Hamas shoot rockets into the desert, and once in a while hits a roof or something.
Doing that will create more hate and even more rockets. If Hamas is finished, another group will take over and fight on. The resistance against occupation always lives.


And someone said the palestinians no longer had a reason to fight because they had gotten their own country in Gaza after Israel pulled out. Ever heard of the word "ghetto"?
The germans didn't occupy the ghetto, they just walled them in and killed random ppl.
The palestinians are in the worlds biggest prison, while Israel won't even let in medicines and enough food supplies. Gaza is strangled, Hamas had to do something. Who can live under such conditions forced upon you by an occupation force?
EVERYONE would FIGHT the occupation with all means, even Mourhelm.

[VT2]

I never once heard about Hamas building schools, or doing anything useful for society, stoffi.
Sure you're not overdosing on your drugs again?

[dka]

[QUOTE=Mourhelm;14390388]
You you need to read again kwwww's post. He said 4,000 Americans died.[quote]

[QUOTE=Mourhelm;14390388]
About that link, that's propaganda. Celebrating with candy and a camera crew is still celebrating...

But as I said on my first post, everyone will believe what they want to believe.[quote]

The point of the link is that they were tricked by the camera crew to celebrate at the time of 911. The camera crew obviously did that with the intention make them look bad.
The news crew provided sweets to illicit that response then they claimed the Palestinians were celebrating 911. Now why would a camera crew be giving out sweets?
Besides, the news did not give any real substance to they're story to prove 911 is what they were celebrating; those palestinians who were baited with candy by the cameramen at least deserve the benefit of a doubt.

According to the news articles they even encouraged them to become animated. This articles claim is strengthened by the fact that the camera crew was giving out candy in the first place.

http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/tran...erste7528.html

http://translate.google.com/translat...158625,00.html

Personally I think the latter article translated better but the former article contains an important detail, the fact that the crew encouraged animation.
The news outlets presenting the tape didn't even show the whole tape to the public, just selective shots (I did some searching and could not find a tape that seemed to be the full length), every tape I could find on this felt a bit short.

If a cameraman knows what he is doing, it is possible for him to do selective shots that make a person look bad unjustifiably.

As for my misread, I don't know how I misread that; I acknowledge that I misread it though.


[QUOTE=Mourhelm;14390388]
The link comes to show that Hamas has been shooting rockets out of schools for years. Even if it's not a UN school, it is still a school.

You can check if it's a UN school yourself, but you won't do it so you won't have to face the truth that Hamas uses schools (and UN schools) to fire rockets from.[quote]

I was simply making an observation based on that video; I have seen propaganda where the news lies about location before. Not that it is necessarily a lie here. I did add edits to that post you are quoting, signifying I didn't find what I thought I found.

As for the second paragraph I don't support hamas, I was just expressing skepticism. And when did I say hamas didn't use schools for they're attacks?

[QUOTE=Mourhelm;14390388]
You've seen the intelligence. There is limited time to make a decision whether to attack or not. The fact that there are Israeli people looking into the matter and criticizing what the army is doing shows that we do care about the mistakes we make.

I'm sure the army is investigating that incident. If you think that it was an intentional attack on civilians, next thing you'll say is that the four Israeli soldiers that died from friendly fire were shot intentionally too.[quote]

My main reason for posting that video is because the person I was responding to seemed to think those civilians were guilty, when in fact they were probably going to do repairs after all the bombing gaza is going through. I wanted to point out that they are most likely innocent.
Regarding whether it was intentional targeting, At this point it probably was intentional to some degree, civilian casualties in gaza are high.

CNN even admitted that Israel attacked first:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

This was planned six months ago:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050426.html

[Nemo]

How can you be sure that none of them elected Hamas because of fear?

How do you know they elected Hamas out of fear? Besides, many Palestinians feel that Hamas would do a much better job of upholding their rights than Mahmoud Abbas, whom they consider spineless. And like it or not, Hamas is popular among Palestinians.

You make a ground assault sound like a walk in the park. That's poor threat assessment.

You guys are supposed to have the most competent army in all of Middle East. Didn't you fend off the armies of most of the Arab Nations? Didn't you win miracle battles? Surely it's not too bold to assume that you could defeat Hamas face-to-face, and save a lot of civilian lives. Yes, of course, losses would be a bit higher on your side, but you would save innocent lives. And you launched a ground attack regardless. So what was the point of killing all those people?

If the price of getting the guys who did it was the lives of a dozen of your friends would you be willing to pay it?

I don't command my friends. I can only speak for myself. To save that guy's kids, I'd give my life. Not for him, but for his kids. For me, my principles come first. And if it really was a dozen of my friends in exchange for 300-400 kids, I'd pay it, and I'm certain my friends would do the same.

If I had my workplace bombed with grenades every day for a year I would go to my government and demand they protect me. Your mother is brave, and I admire that, but I doubt she liked the situation.

The terrorist group came out of the closet [so to speak] and attacked different targets for a year, not one target repeatedly. They did some bombings before with big breaks in between attacks, over a period of about 10 years. It targetted MPs, Police, Judicial service, cultural activists, etc.

And of course she didn't like the situation. You'd have to be insane to like the situation.

Out of curiosity, where does your mother work (or worked) when they threw grenades at her workplace everyday?

She's a judge. They bombed courts.

[Mourhelm]

The point of the link is that they were tricked by the camera crew to celebrate at the time of 911. The camera crew obviously did that with the intention make them look bad.
The news crew provided sweets to illicit that response then they claimed the Palestinians were celebrating 911. Now why would a camera crew be giving out sweets?
Besides, the news did not give any real substance to they're story to prove 911 is what they were celebrating; those palestinians who were baited with candy by the cameramen at least deserve the benefit of a doubt.

According to the news articles they even encouraged them to become animated. This articles claim is strengthened by the fact that the camera crew was giving out candy in the first place.

http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/tran...erste7528.html

http://translate.google.com/translat...158625,00.html

Personally I think the latter article translated better but the former article contains an important detail, the fact that the crew encouraged animation.
The news outlets presenting the tape didn't even show the whole tape to the public, just selective shots (I did some searching and could not find a tape that seemed to be the full length), every tape I could find on this felt a bit short.

If a cameraman knows what he is doing, it is possible for him to do selective shots that make a person look bad unjustifiably.

The press has a business of making news. I agree that news crews can report false information. did you check if there are other indications of Palestinians celebrating (not in relation to that specific video)?

I was simply making an observation based on that video; I have seen propaganda where the news lies about location before. Not that it is necessarily a lie here. I did add edits to that post you are quoting, signifying I didn't find what I thought I found.

As for the second paragraph I don't support hamas, I was just expressing skepticism. And when did I say hamas didn't use schools for they're attacks?

At least we agree that they shot out of schools.

My main reason for posting that video is because the person I was responding to seemed to think those civilians were guilty, when in fact they were probably going to do repairs after all the bombing gaza is going through. I wanted to point out that they are most likely innocent.
Regarding whether it was intentional targeting, At this point it probably was intentional to some degree, civilian casualties in gaza are high.

I don't think there is any reason to target innocent civilians. If they looked guilty (as they obviously did) the firing was intentional, but as an aim at terrorists with rockets.

CNN even admitted that Israel attacked first:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

That one got cut in the middle of their discussion...

More info on the Israeli raid is needed to understand the circumstances.

At any case, if the cease fire was broken, why did both sides waited for it to officially be over?

Israel must have had a good reason to attack these gunman or it wouldn't risk breaking the cease fire.

Also, do you know what were the terms of the cease fire? Maybe something happened that was not covered in the cease fire agreement.

This was planned six months ago:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050426.html

I didn't watch the video.

Every army in the world have plans for action according to it's threat assessments. The army has plans for cases of an all out war, it doesn't mean it initiates the war.

Same case here, threat assessment was that there might be an escalation with the Palestinians at the Gaza strip so there was a plan for that case.

---

How do you know they elected Hamas out of fear? Besides, many Palestinians feel that Hamas would do a much better job of upholding their rights than Mahmoud Abbas, whom they consider spineless. And like it or not, Hamas is popular among Palestinians.

I don't know. I said "they might have elected Hamas out of fear". Disagreeing with that means that they didn't elect Hamas out of fear for sure. That's why I asked you "how you could be so sure?".

My point was that the fact that they elected Hamas doesn't make them guilty of anything and doesn't change the fact that they are civilians that shouldn't be targeted.

You guys are supposed to have the most competent army in all of Middle East. Didn't you fend off the armies of most of the Arab Nations? Didn't you win miracle battles? Surely it's not too bold to assume that you could defeat Hamas face-to-face, and save a lot of civilian lives. Yes, of course, losses would be a bit higher on your side, but you would save innocent lives. And you launched a ground attack regardless. So what was the point of killing all those people?

The competence of our army is irrelevant (I am happy you think it's the best around - it makes it a good deterrent).

Once you join the Israeli army (or any army that actually has a threat to deal with for that matter) and get to read intelligence reports and threat assessments you will understand why an army fight like it fights.

I don't command my friends. I can only speak for myself. To save that guy's kids, I'd give my life. Not for him, but for his kids. For me, my principles come first. And if it really was a dozen of my friends in exchange for 300-400 kids, I'd pay it, and I'm certain my friends would do the same.

If it was a dozen soldiers for 300-400 kids we would pay it too. That's why we sent in ground forces, to reduce the civilian casualties.

I asked you about paying the price of a dozen for your friends for 0 kids and 0 civilians. I guess you wouldn't pay that, would you?

My point is that it's not a dozen of your friends it's thousand of your friends and family.

Estimations are that Hamas has about 20,000 troops. Going at them without thinking will cost a lot more than it will save. After considering the threat and the cost and effect of each contingency Israel decided to go with the current action.

You wouldn't want all your friends to just die because someone sent them on an ineffective suicide attack.

The terrorist group came out of the closet [so to speak] and attacked different targets for a year, not one target repeatedly. They did some bombings before with big breaks in between attacks, over a period of about 10 years. It targetted MPs, Police, Judicial service, cultural activists, etc.

And of course she didn't like the situation. You'd have to be insane to like the situation.

The people of Israel don't like the situation of terror either.

Sadly, Hamas is not a terrorist cell that you can just capture. it's a huge organization operating from within civilian population.

[stoffi]

Hamas is not a terrorist cell, they fight for freedom from the occupation forces. Palestine has been occupied for quite some time now, and even though Israel hasn't been physically in Gaza, it is still tightly controlled by Israel, Israel controls EVERYTHING, and they keep breaking the geneva convention.

The truth is that ethnic cleansing has been going on for decades, since Israel was founded. Every week, more and more palestinians are evicted from their homes in Jerusalem and jews take over. This is ethnic cleansing, and we bombed Serbia for such activities.


Few of you understand that palestinians don't fear Hamas. Hamas is a humanitarian organization in addition to its political and miliary wings. They build schools, kinder gardens, hospitals, etc etc. They are loved, not feared.

Mourhelm does what the ignorant usually does, shuts his eyes, trying to ignore the truth, trying to ignore our posts.
To say that Hamas is feared, really shows how little you know of what you are talking about.
It's sad to see Israel become a new Nazi-germany, a new south africa. When jews themselves cry out about holocaust repeating itself, and south africans say Israel run an apartheid politic, it's about time you stop and listen, because these ppl KNOW what they are talking about.

[VT2]

Anyone who fights for freedom from oppression is an enemy of the state, and enemies of the state are called just 'terrorists.'