Israel, it's about time!

[VT2]

"Hamas is a humanitarian organization in addition to its political and miliary wings."

If we're to side with stoffi, it means that we have to accept the fact that Hitler, despite all the death he caused, was still a good guy, because he built roads.

[WolfDGrey]

yea it's not stoffi's first attempt to make Hamas look good... lol, he even tried to make the nazis look good, hahahaha

[VT2]

Maybe he's a terrorist on the inside?
A danish terrorist, no less.

[Mourhelm]

Hamas Charter

Here are a few quotes:

The Motto of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) - "Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model to be followed, the Koran its constitution, Jihad its way, and death for the sake of Allah its loftiest desire."

"There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are a waste of time and a farce."

[Jobolob]

"Hamas is a humanitarian organization in addition to its political and miliary wings."

If we're to side with stoffi, it means that we have to accept the fact that Hitler, despite all the death he caused, was still a good guy, because he built roads.

LOL, perfect example.

Hitler did lots for "his" people, doesnt matter that because of one man 25 million CIVILIANS died in World war 2 and over 45 million military personel.

To see the full death statistics of WW2 - http://www.world-war-2.info/statistics/

I know we cant really compare Hamas to Hitler and the Nazis but for theoretical examples it worked.

Killing innocent people is wrong. Thats what it comes down to, but Hamas need to be stopped.

[Nemo]

I asked you about paying the price of a dozen for your friends for 0 kids and 0 civilians. I guess you wouldn't pay that, would you?

You are not making any sense. If it was only the terrorists alone, of course we wouldn't care overly much whether they lived or died. But you are not bombing only terrorists. You're bombing their families with them. You're bombing schools filled with children cause there is a weapons depot underneath.

"There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are a waste of time and a farce."

I guess 40 years of warfare can make you slightly pessimistic.

[WolfDGrey]

You're bombing schools filled with children cause there is a weapons depot underneath.

In one of my posts I gave an example from the same day, when BOTH parties did that. If you'd been inpartial, not so blinded by propaganda, you'd know that.

And who is to blame that the weapons depot is there? Would you make a minefield on the route to the school of your kid?

I guess 40 years of warfare can make you slightly pessimistic.

2008-1948 = 60. So, add 20 more to your 40 :P

[WolfDGrey]

Lol. Indeed, swedish priests are world known for their propaganda machinery....

ALL priests are versed into propagande... that's what they do. One of the best propaganda machine is religion/church.

[Nemo]

2008-1948 = 60. So, add 20 more to your 40

1987-1948=39~40 years. Hamas was created in 1987.

In one of my posts I gave an example from the same day, when BOTH parties did that. If you'd been inpartial, not so blinded by propaganda, you'd know that.

In that case, Israel should not act so morally good and admit that they are the same as Hamas.

[WolfDGrey]

1987-1948=39~40 years. Hamas was created in 1987.

from and with people who, today are in war for 60 :P

In that case, Israel should not act so morally good and admit that they are the same as Hamas.

Also, Hamas says that THEY are the morally good... so there you are... again we're back to propaganda and hidden agendas wich keep the war going on.

[Nemo]

from and with people who, today are in war for 60 :P

The charter was created around the time when Hamas was created. It was written in 1988 [check the charter link provided by Mourhelm]. At that moment, it had been 40 years of war.

Also, Hamas says that THEY are the morally good... so there you are... again we're back to propaganda and hidden agendas wich keep the war going on.

Yes, but a Hamas supporter isn't on these forums pretending to be on the morally high ground. I've said it before in this thread: if there was anybody saying it, I'd be criticizing him shoulder to shoulder with you.

I thought this guy resonated strongly with me:
http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery01022009.html

[stoffi]

Can the trolls please crawl back to their caves.



Does anyone remember Shamir, twice pm of Israel? He was a high ranking member in Levi, a jewish terror organization who once slaughtered an entire village. They bombed cafe's, busses, hotels, killed jews who were against them, bombed the brits, killed UN officials, etc.
Do you remember Menachem Begin? He was a leader in Irgun, a jewish terror organization. He also became Prime minister.
Rabin came from a more moderate terror group, Haganah. Another PM also came from Haganah, and lots of foreign ministers and defence minister and you name it came from these terror organizations, even Sharon fought in a terror organization.
The very foundation of Israel is built on TERROR.

But bombing busses and cafe's was okay back then, according to Israel today. They celebrate the bombing of Hotel King David every year, where over 90 ppl were killed. Menachem begin and Levi are national heroes, and Levi got his own memorial day. Levi was the most extreme terrorist of them all btw.
Why do they celebrate terrorists and their bus bombings, when they at the same time condemn Hamas for bombing the desert?

They praise jewish terrorism, but condemn it when it's done against them.

Israel has nothing against terror, they embrace it and use it every day.

Because those terror organizations became the core of the IDF and all leadership came from terrorist organizations. Likud is the new name for Irgun/Levi, and as you know Kadima came from Likud.
That's why Israel won't hesitate to bomb civilians, it's in their blood, Israel was founded on killing civilians and using terror as a weapon. And so far it's worked very well.

[WolfDGrey]

Can the trolls please crawl back to their caves.

The you should be the first, since trolling includes posting **** to get an emotional response, wich you do, and do in every post.

condemn Hamas for bombing the desert?

A few posts above were examples about what and when Hamas bombed. Kindergarden is not desert. Neither schools. Hamas is just as guilty as the israelis. You're blind and biased and each and every of your posts are directed towards flaming and emotional response. So basically you're trolling. No, you won't get an emotional response from me. I'm not jew neither arab. I don't have symphaties for neither.

Both parties have their big share of ****, and the fact that neither want to get to an agreement despise the fact that they are out of any "engagement rules" shows us clearly how effectively mass media/propaganda can brainwash people like you, stoffi, who have absolutely no business in the area, still allways have an extreme opinion.

It's clear for me that if you can be such a good clay to be worked out by the general propaganda machine, for the people who actually live in the area and gets the same manipulation on both sides for the last 60 or more years, it's impossible to think clean.

Of course they will blame each other and will revenge the other's action with even more violent actions. It doesn't matter who starts the problems every time. It doesn't matter who has the biggest or lowest casualities.

The fact that ther are over a thousand victims and half of them are civilians on the palestinian side but only 13-15 on israeli side means absolutaly nothing, it's just the hazard of life. It's not because Hamas would be morally better or worse than Israelis.

It's not that Hamas doesn't want to kill israelis. It's just that, at this time the israelis have more effective defense than the Hamas has offence. Also as the palestinian side's casualities show, the have more effective offence too.

If Hamas, who launched more than 700 rockets in 15 days into Israel, bombing everything they could reach, yes, including schools and kindergardens, wouldn't be so damn ineffective, or the israeli shelters wouldn't be so effective, the israeli side would have same casualities. They didn't sent the rockets because they wanted fireworks on the New Years Eve sky. They sent them hoping that they will kill israelis. Denying that would be imbecile.

So, don't give us that "oh poor victims" speech. It's not working.

Both sides are to blame.
And several other islamic countries who have interests in the area.
And the western world including the USA, who pushed so hard for democratic elections, then after Hamas won, they didn't recognised it as a legitime election.
And several other european countries who lick oil-rich middle eastern countries asses, otherwise they will be cut off from the sweet slice of black pie.
And China, Iran plus Russia who are the other big countries selling weapons there, beside the USA.

So cut the crap, the whole thing is not about some palestinian casualities.
Is about oil, weapons, strategical assistance, political influence, mass media, multi-milion dollar businesses, several other factors versus 2 "nations" who are brainwashed enough after 60 years to want to kill each others.

Remember: Humans are weird creatures: one man can be a genious while the flock allways will be much closer to animal than human.

[Mourhelm]

Both Israel and Hamas are guilty here. For the record it does not say "if you use civilians as shields it is your fault that they die" as you indicated earlier.

I agree it doesn't say that explicitly in my quote of the Geneva convention, but I'm sure you can find it.

I will take the time to look for it later (I'm kinda busy now and I need to reformat my computer).

I found the needed time to look.

From Protocol 1 Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 1977:

Article 58.-Precautions against the effects of attacks
The Parties to the conflict shall, to the maximum extent feasible:

(a) Without prejudice to Article 49 of the Fourth Convention, endeavour to remove the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control from the vicinity of military objectives;

(b) Avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas;

(c) Take the other necessary precautions to protect the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control against the dangers resulting from military operations.

From the forth Geneva convention:

Art. 28. The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

As per AFKain's request, a more explicit text that shows that, according to international law, Hamas is responsible for the civilian population in the Gaza strip and for their deaths.

[WolfDGrey]

Also I find it interesting that EVERY time something happens in Israel/Palestina, we HAVE to hear about it. The media bombards us with news every 3 hours... we hear the opinions of all... we allmost can see the **** splatting in direct transmission... the whole world cries because 1000 people died in an area where many states are loaded with oil.

- War in Sudan - 500.000 deaths since 2003.
- The Kivu Conflict (Democratic Republic of Congo) - 4 MILION DEAD since 2003

and many more....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_conflicts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...2%80%93current

Why people like stoffi don't hit their butts to the floor in outrage for the casualities because of the above ONGOING CONFLICTS?

Is that because the media doesn't shove it in his muff so hard? Because there are less multi-milion-dollar-interests than in the middle east so news come in horsecarriages not by internet?

C'mon hypocrits, proove me that the somali or sudani deaths are less important than the middle eastern, that's why you load the forums with soap to clean up either Hamas or the IDF...