Israel, it's about time!

[Nemo]

Why people like stoffi don't hit their butts to the floor in outrage for the casualities because of the above ONGOING CONFLICTS?

That's cause people aren't on these forums saying it's "about time" those conflicts got started.

C'mon hypocrits, proove me that the somali or sudani deaths are less important than the middle eastern

Of course they matter. But let me quote from silly hollywood movie called Sahara:

Relax, it's Africa. Nobody cares about Africa.

The media cares the least.

one man can be a genious while the flock allways will be much closer to animal than human.

Ain't that the truth.

[allonons]

Irgun, shorthand for Irgun Tsvai Leumi was a paramilitary Zionist group that operated in the British Mandate of Palestine from 1931 to 1948. In Israel, this group is consistently referred to Etzel, a contraction of the Hebrew initials. It was classified by British authorities as a "terrorist organization" but many regarded it to be a "liberation movement".


While the strategy, tactics, and operational methods of the organization changed through the years, its primary goals were to: Provide a non-Socialist alternative to the leading Zionist organizations; Eliminate or reduce the threat of Arab attacks on Jewish targets by assured and harsh retaliation for such attacks; Bring to an end the British mandatory rule, which they considered in violation of international law
From its inception, the group went through several phases in its short lifespan.


During the Great Uprising (1936-1939), in which about 400 Jews were killed in Arab attacks, Irgun resumed its reprisal attacks against Arabs. Following the killing of five Jews at Kibbutz Qiryat Anavim on November 9, 1937, Irgun launched a series of attacks which lasted until the beginning of World War II, in which more than 250 Arab civilians were killed.
These attacks coincided roughly with Irgun's campaign of facilitating immigration of European Jews who faced discrimination, murder and pogroms in Europe. The first vessel arrived on April 13, 1937, and the last on February 13, 1940. All told, about 18,000 Jews escaped genocide in Europe in this way.


From 1940 through 1943, Irgun declared a truce against the British, and supported Allied efforts against Nazi forces and Arab allies in the area by enlisting its members in British forces and the Jewish Brigade. A small group group lead by Avraham Stern, who insisted on continuing to fight the British, broke off and formed and independent group (LEHI). In 1941, the Irgun leader, David Raziel volunteered for a dangerous mission in Iraq to assassinate Amin al-Husayni, but was killed by a German bomber before the operation could be finished. In February of 1944, under the new leadership of Menachem Begin, Irgun resumed hostilities against the British authorities. The purpose of these attacks was to bring public attention to the cost and ineffectiveness of the British mandatory rule. It included attacks on prominent symbols of the British administration, including British military, police, and civil headquarters at the King David Hotel and the British prison in Acre. Although these attacks were largely successful, several Irgun operatives were captured, convicted, and hanged. Refusing to accept the jurisdiction of the British courts, those accused refused to defend themselves. The Irgun leadership ultimately responded to these executions by hanging two British sergeants, which effectively brought the executions to an end.


Following the murder of Lord Moyne by Lehi, the Yishuv and Jewish Agency initiated "The Hunting Season" on Irgun and the Lehi group, facilitating the arrest of some 1000 members of those organizations who were interned in British camps. The British deported 251 of them to camps in Africa.
From about October of 1945 until July 1946 Irgun was in an alliance with the Haganah and Lehi called the Jewish Resistance Movement, organized to fight British restrictions on Jewish immigration. This alliance ended when Irgun bombed British military, police, and civil headquarters at the King David Hotel as a retaliation for Operation Agatha.


Legacy of Irgun: Leaders within the mainstream Jewish Agency, Haganah, and Histadrut, as well as British authorities, routinely condemned Irgun operations as "terrorist" and branded it as an "illegal organization". In their defense, former Irgun leaders assert that: The premises for their founding and strategy were vindicated by subsequent events. Arab violence against Jews in the mandate of Palestine could only be deterred through retaliation; the British authorities only ended their restrictions on Jewish immigration when pressured by force; and unrestricted Jewish immigration was a matter of saving lives, both during the Shoah and during post-World War II pogroms in Poland and the Ukraine.



Operations that are usually characterized as "terrorist" had another character. The King David Hotel attack was considered a legitimate military target, being the British military headquarters; the attack on Deir Yassin was part of a campaign to control the road between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv; the attack on the Acre prison was to release prisoners the British intended to hang. At least one of the attacks plainly made against civilians was unauthorized by the Irgun.




Just wanted to clear up stoffis comments on Jewish terrorist which is a cotradiction in terms considering while these newly formed Jewish military organizations were fighting for the survival of thier race throughout the world at the time of all out effort by Arabs and Nazi's alike to destroy them and at the same time British policies tried to tie thier hands to respond to these events.


Those Jewish entities attacked/retaled against arab attacks and a British mandate that was crippiling thier ability to respond to arab attacks.

Once again stoffi your on the wrong side of the fence with this one.

[allonons]

Sub Note

Operation Agatha


Operation Agatha (Saturday, June 29, 1946) sometimes called Black Shabbat or Black Saturday because it began on the Jewish sabbath, was a police and military operation conducted by the British authorities in the British Mandate of Palestine. Soldiers and police searched for arms and made arrests in Jerusalem, Tel-Aviv, and Haifa, and in several dozen settlements; the semi-official Jewish Agency was raided. The total number of British security forces involved is variously reported as 10,000, 17,000, and 25,000. About 2,700 individuals were arrested, among them Moshe Sharett. The British objectives included dissuading the Haganah and the Palmach, Lehi (Stern Gang), and the Irgun Tzvai Leumi, from undertaking further attacks against British troops and officials, as well as possibly dissuading a unilateral proclamation of a Jewish state, and bolstering morale...



The British operations were extensive. Low flying planes circled Jerusalem. Roadblocks were maintained, trains were flagged down, and passengers were evacuated and escorted home. Special licenses were required for the operations of emergency vehicles. Curfews were imposed.

Arms caches were discovered. At Kibbutz Yagur, the troops found more than 300 rifles, some 100 2-inch mortars, more than 400,000 bullets, some 5,000 grenades and 78 revolvers. The arms were displayed at a press conference, and all the men of Yagur were arrested.[4]

Agatha triggered echoes of the Holocaust in the minds of many people. Women ripped their clothing to expose concentration camp tattoos. There were incidents of people in the settlements herded into cages while screaming that this was what the Nazis did. A minority among the British troops exacerbated the situation by shouting "Heil Hitler," scrawling swastikas on walls, and referring to gas chambers while conducting searches




After Agatha ended, the kidnapped British officers were released, and High Commissioner Alan Cunningham commuted the Irgun members' death sentences to life imprisonment.

The Haganah and Palmach was dissuaded from continued anti-British operations.[6] However, the more extreme groups, the Lehi (Stern Gang) and the Irgun Tzvai Leumi, headed by future Prime Minister Menachem Begin, continued and even intensified their attacks.[7]

Specifically, the Irgun retaliated for Operation Agatha by bombing the south wing of the King David Hotel, which was the headquarters of the British government in Palestine

CIVILIANS
The only mention i see in all of this is 250 civilinn arab deaths after 405 jewish cilvilian deaths had occured....

Everything here metioned from these so called British terrorist tagged newly formed Jewish Military units was in response to either German,British,or arab operations performed against the Jews first.!


Now stoffi you show me a lagitimt scenario where the Jews attacked anyone that was not attacking them restraing them or setting up to attack them ie: the 6 day war ,cause I just can't find it anywhere.


Again I go back to the fact that the British Mandate was the reason for this debacle in the middle east,

To give Trans Jordan 75% of the Palestinian area was a huge mistake...and yet to this day noone talks of giving that land back to the Palestinians

This whole thing is a farce if the Arab Palestinians fought for 75% of old Palestine (which is now most of Jordan) as they do with the 25% of the palesrinain area the jews live on and built up then they would actually have my support ,cause at that time I would feel it just was not about a religious war of one faith wanting to destroy another faith......and that it was actually about land for palestinian people of all faiths to live in peace .....once that time comes wake me up,other than that it's surviaval of the fitist!

[allonons]

NEMO

Quote:
Why people like stoffi don't hit their butts to the floor in outrage for the casualities because of the above ONGOING CONFLICTS?

That's cause people aren't on these forums saying it's "about time" those conflicts got started.









It is about time nemo....

Where I come from in my town on my street,,if you throw a rock through my window and I know where you live ,I'm coming to beat your azz to the point you will never want to throw a rock through my window ever again!

And if your ever brave enough to do it again cause God told you to do it......I brake your fingers and arms so that you physically can not throw any rocks anywhere the rest of your life.

[WolfDGrey]

Ain't that the truth.

Don' make me post horrible thing the flock does... it's not appropriate in a PG13 forum.

[Nemo]

Where I come from in my town on my street,,if you throw a rock through my window and I know where you live ,I'm coming to beat your azz to the point you will never want to throw a rock through my window ever again!

And if your ever brave enough to do it again cause God told you to do it......I brake your fingers and arms so that you physically can not throw any rocks anywhere the rest of your life.

That's a poor analogy. If I break your window, you hand me over to the police. In your course of action, you end up doing the harsher crime. I broke a window, you are breaking limbs.

[kwwww]

That's a poor analogy. If I break your window, you hand me over to the police. In your course of action, you end up doing the harsher crime. I broke a window, you are breaking limbs.

Yeah but there is no police to settle disputes between Isreal and Hamas. So f*ck Hamas, go Israel go. Let's not forget how much Germans suffered in World War II thanks to Hitler. Noone felt sorry for the Germans during war, why are so many people feeling sorry for the Palastines. Israel suffers everyday, like never ending 911. We dont see anyone protesting against suffering of Jews. People are just Anti-Semitic that's why they never learn.

[Nemo]

Yeah but there is no police to settle disputes between Isreal and Hamas. So f*ck Hamas, go Israel go. Let's not forget how much Germans suffered in World War II thanks to Hitler. Noone felt sorry for the Germans during war, why are so many people feeling sorry for the Palastines. Israel suffers everyday, like never ending 911. We dont see anyone protesting against suffering of Jews. People are just Anti-Semitic that's why they never learn.

So all these people trying to get a peace process going, don't exist? The Arab League offered normal relations in return for Israeli withdrawal to the 1949 armistice lines in 2002. If that had been taken, maybe the Arab league could've acted as the police and Hamas and Hizbullah wouldn't have so much in the way of funds. The Europeans and the UN and the US have been trying to settle something. Even Hamas offered a 30 year truce in exchange for 1967 borders. True, it's no official recognition. But hot young blood may have cooled. Things might have taken a turn towards improvement.

It's really sort of ironic how both Israel and US got screwed by organisations they helped create in the first place. And how both think that they can kill the monsters, when in reality, they are feeding it.

[AFKain]

Let's not forget how much Germans suffered in World War II thanks to Hitler. Noone felt sorry for the Germans during war, why are so many people feeling sorry for the Palastines. Israel suffers everyday, like never ending 911. We dont see anyone protesting against suffering of Jews. People are just Anti-Semitic that's why they never learn.

People sympathize with Palestinians because in this case Israel is Hitler...

Calling people anti-semitic for disagreeing with Israel's refusal to follow the UN resolution, breach of international rules of war and continued killing of Hamas members and civilians alike is really quite weak.

[AFKain]

[there were some more quotes here that I can't get to work properly, article 28 fourth Geneva convention being the important one]
As per AFKain's request, a more explicit text that shows that, according to international law, Hamas is responsible for the civilian population in the Gaza strip and for their deaths.

Are you serious? Article 28 says nothing about placing blame on anyone. Furthermore the article does not state that it is OK to attack a site where there are "protected persons" it simply states that doing so is not always illegal.

The difference between "not always illegal" and legal is quite big.

[WolfDGrey]

Are you serious? Article 28 says nothing about placing blame on anyone. Furthermore the article does not state that it is OK to attack a site where there are "protected persons" it simply states that doing so is not always illegal.

The difference between "not always illegal" and legal is quite big.

It says that the protected persons can't be immune to war operations if they are there. In conclusion they will have to face the consequences.

Also

(b) Avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas;

Makes clear that building a weapons deposit under a school or civilian place is not right.

Let's not wash clean Hamas... There is not enough soap in the world to clean up that situation on either side.

[Mourhelm]

People sympathize with Palestinians because in this case Israel is Hitler...

You're starting to sound like stoffi.

Calling people anti-semitic for disagreeing with Israel's refusal to follow the UN resolution, breach of international rules of war and continued killing of Hamas members and civilians alike is really quite weak.

What international rules of war are you referring to exactly?

Firing at military targets is legitimate as I've shown in the quotes above, it is Hamas responsibility to protect the civilians. It is sad that they die, but if Hamas didn't use them as human shields there would have been a lot less civilian casualties.

Are you serious? Article 28 says nothing about placing blame on anyone. Furthermore the article does not state that it is OK to attack a site where there are "protected persons" it simply states that doing so is not always illegal.

The difference between "not always illegal" and legal is quite big.

Art. 28. The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

This means that when Hamas fires, Israel may return fire. The fact that there are civilians there doesn't make Hamas immune from attacks.

...endeavour to remove the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control from the vicinity of military objectives;

This means that if Hamas want's to fire from anywhere, they are responsible to remove the civilian population from the area. Clearly, they don't even try.

(b) Avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas;

Lets say that Hamas must fire from a densely populated area (although it's not true - there are plenty of empty spaces to fire from, like former settlements that were removed by Israel). Hamas can and must go to the least densely populated area.

Hamas is doing the exact opposite! One example is the firing from the UN school.

(c) Take the other necessary precautions to protect the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control against the dangers resulting from military operations.

Other necessary precautions include, for example, building shelters for the civilian population. Israel built shelters for its population, and that's why there are a lot less civilian casualties on the Israeli side.

International law clearly states that Hamas is responsible for the Palestinian civilian population. If Hamas cared for civilian lives, it would have attacked Israeli military targets and put its own people in shelters or at the very least would not fire from within civilian population.

[AFKain]

It says that the protected persons can't be immune to war operations if they are there. In conclusion they will have to face the consequences.

No. That would be true if article 28 was the only article dealing with this issue, it is not (see article 3). Article 28 is obviously supplementary, an exception from the general rule; which is that "protected persons" must not be killed. The correct interpretation would thus be that civilians can not be killed, unless in extreme circumstances.

Makes clear that building a weapons deposit under a school or civilian place is not right.

Let's not wash clean Hamas... There is not enough soap in the world to clean up that situation on either side.

Agreed, I've always stated that there are two sides that are equally responsible for the deaths of the uninvolved civilians.

[AFKain]

You're starting to sound like stoffi.

I am merely following along with the poor analogy that kwwww used in an attempt to show him that his logic is flawed.

What international rules of war are you referring to exactly?

Firing at military targets is legitimate as I've shown in the quotes above, it is Hamas responsibility to protect the civilians. It is sad that they die, but if Hamas didn't use them as human shields there would have been a lot less civilian casualties.

First of all you have not shown anything other than that it sometimes isn't illegal to kill civilians while firing at military targets.

Secondly, Israel is not firing at just military targets there have been reports that several mobile hospitals have been hit, as has one (to my knowledge) UN shelter in addition to that a multitude of facilities are hit just because they are associated with Hamas without having any military importance. Then there is of course the destruction of civilian property which is disallowed in article 53 in Geneva 4.


Other than that I believe that the use of white phosphor against houses is a clear breach as well.

Edit: I just saw that there were another bunch of illegitimate attacks. The headquarters of the UN Relief and Works Agency (with white phosphor shells). The al-Quds hospital, where over 500 patients were being treated. The building that houses the offices of Reuters and other media organizations was also attacked.

This could be good reading for you:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...1500809&s_pos=

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5521925.ece

This means that when Hamas fires, Israel may return fire. The fact that there are civilians there doesn't make Hamas immune from attacks.

This means that if Hamas want's to fire from anywhere, they are responsible to remove the civilian population from the area. Clearly, they don't even try.

Lets say that Hamas must fire from a densely populated area (although it's not true - there are plenty of empty spaces to fire from, like former settlements that were removed by Israel). Hamas can and must go to the least densely populated area.

I don't understand why you keep going on about hamas' responsibility when nobody is arguing about that? It is obvious that Hamas should be doing a lot of things that aren't being done, but Israel has a responsibility not to kill civilians. When 50% of the people killed are civilians that responsibility is not taken seriously.

Hamas is doing the exact opposite! One example is the firing from the UN school.

That would be the Israeli version... I am more inclined to believe an impartial organization than the ones who were firing at them.

Other necessary precautions include, for example, building shelters for the civilian population. Israel built shelters for its population, and that's why there are a lot less civilian casualties on the Israeli side.

There are less Israeli casualties because Hamas is fighting with the equivalent of sticks and stones.

[Nemo]

Firing at military targets is legitimate as I've shown in the quotes above, it is Hamas responsibility to protect the civilians. It is sad that they die, but if Hamas didn't use them as human shields there would have been a lot less civilian casualties.

This means that if Hamas want's to fire from anywhere, they are responsible to remove the civilian population from the area.

So during the Siege of Leningrad, when the Germans bombed the city, it was the Soviets fault for defending the city and thus leading to the deaths of millions of civilians, right? It was the Russians fault that they decided to set up defenses around the gateways of the city. Also, it was Churchill and his cabinet members fault that they lived in London and caused all the civilians to die during the Blitzkrieg bombings? According to you, that'd be using human shields too, right?

If you are expecting Hamas to set up huts in the desert with big signs saying "bomb me, I'm here", that's not gonna happen.

One example is the firing from the UN school.

Agree with AFKain on this one. UN maybe useless and, in my views, partly responsible for this mess, but they don't generally lie.

While you are at reading, might as well take a look at this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...k-1230046.html