Israel, it's about time!

[stoffi]

Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."


Qur'an 4:11 "Allah directs you in regard of your Children's (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females.... These are settled portions ordained by Allah."



Qur'an 4:15 "If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them."



Bukhari:V3B48N826 "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes.' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind.'"


Ishaq:584 "Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman."



Qur'an 24:6 "And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth."

I will answer your other post in the morning.



But what on earth has this got to do with it?



The Tora says that if you find a gay person in your village, you must stone him with the other villagers. Also, if you got laundry out to dry in the sun on a sunday, you must be stoned.
Also, you can sell your daughter as a slave, only not to a neighbour country....


Does this apply for all jews? Hardly.

[TheMistressOfBaal]

Don't forget also, the Old Testament teaching of sodom and gomorrah, which teaches that homosexuality is a crime in Christianity - but the gang rape of teenage girls finds favor with god.

Finding absurdities in any religion is a trivial matter - but as you say Stoffi, this issue is about the murder of hundreds of innocent people, not religion.

[Nemo]

Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."

That is a hadith. Not all hadith are believed. And this one is disregarded by most Muslims. It is often used for attacking Muslims, though.

EDIT: Some hadiths are disregarded because hadiths are quotes of quotes.

Qur'an 4:11 "Allah directs you in regard of your Children's (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females.... These are settled portions ordained by Allah."

Read my reply to Lightzy regarding property distribution.

Qur'an 4:15 "If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them."

The word starvation was not used. The punishment was only house arrest. They are to be well-fed and clothed.

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?"
[Al-Qur’an 2:106]

In Qur'an 24:2, it is said that the punishment for adultery or fornication is a 100 lashes. It is the same for both men and women.

Bukhari:V3B48N826 "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes.' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind.'"

There is a slight problem with that hadith when it says "deficiency of a woman's mind". That's not true. A woman's witness counts as half of a man, true, but only in financial matters. It is expected that the men handle financial matters of the household, hence, their word counts more here. In all other cases, criminal and what not, a woman's witness counts the same as that of a man's.

Ishaq:584 "Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman."

Lol! This one doesn't even deserve an answer, but I will give it anyway. Marriage is considered as companionship. You can't have a companion you can't trust. Trust me, Muslims trust their wives. Otherwise, they'd never eat their wives' cooking.

Qur'an 24:6 "And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth."

This is, imo, the funniest law. It works both ways if there are no witnesses. You accuse your wife, you got no witnesses, you swear four times on God's name and a fifth time, cursing yourself in case you lie. The wife does the same, only, she's swearing she's innocent. Done. Case dismissed. No punishment. God shall do the judging.

Seriously dude, enough with the religious attack. You don't see anyone here criticizing or attacking Judaism. And I agree with MistressOfBaal:

This issue is not a matter of religion in any case. It is a matter of the unjustifiable slaughter of civilians by a state.

[TheMistressOfBaal]

Why don't we let them slaughter each other, and turn our attention to more fruitful things, like playing Megaman ZX?

The governments of the world that are able to do something about the issue ARE standing aside and letting Israel slaughter civilians. At least, now they're standing aside - the past has been the arming of Israel by (principally) America.

So America stands shoulder to shoulder with Israel, granting tacit approval through inaction of their policies. This emboldens Israel into ever more blatent acts of terrorism, till we see the action we have been seeing over the last couple of weeks.

Should the French resistance have given up in the second world war because Germany was so much more powerful. Should the Dutch resistance? Should the people of England risen up and killed the government because they were perpetrating a war with a much more powerful enemy, that was killing civillians in response?

It is just as absurd for the Palestinians to surrender their desire for freedom from the oppression of Israel, and Israel's occupation of their land. That it is 60 years since the land was invaded doesn't matter at all.

To satisfy the seeming thirst for quotes, I'll turn to fiction, and quote Joseph Michael Straczynski:

"No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater force in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free." -G'Kar (on the fall of the Narn homeworld to the Centauri)

[WolfDGrey]

The governments of the world that are able to do something about the issue ARE standing aside and letting Israel slaughter civilians.

Yeap... they stand aside because they have other interests in the region. Just as they stood aside when suicide bombers were targeting israel or when rockets flew into israel for 8 years.

the past has been the arming of Israel by (principally) America.

And by Russia, China and Iran, etc. Keep the correct way please. We are no dumb, so if you mention arms, mention both sides, as both sides have interests. Otherwise you'll fall into stoffi's propaganda style of half trues and half lies mixed then baked with emotional garbage.

So America stands shoulder to shoulder with Israel, granting tacit approval through inaction of their policies.

So... the oil-rich arabs did what to help the palestinian civilians in the last 60 years? Nothing. Ecxcetp taking 75% of palestine of course. That's tacit approval of keeping them in a ghetto. It's tacit approval for their miserable conditions.

Of course you all forget to tell that when Israel withdraw from Gaza, Egipt refused to help the palestinians, refused to give them anything and they keep the borders closed. So why I don't hear you cursing Egipt who is partly responsable for the lack of food, medicine and other goods in Gaza?

Also... why is there lack of food, lack of electricity and other goods?
A few years ago a milion palestinians worked daily in Israel. But the palestinians wanted separation, and self-determination. It's all good. They got Israel withdraw from Gaza. It's still all good. But they forgot something. Being separate means no more jobs. Means that if you try to bomb them, they'll send in the military to bomb you.

At the border closing after Hamas bombed the wall in Rafah, Egipt refused to supply electricity, food and medicine to Gaza, they rather re-closed the borders with the help of the police. So Gaza still depends on Israel to supply that.

Now tell me if you'd give out those things, you'd want them to send rockets on you?

The arab countries are just as guilty as Israel for the palestnian situation.

It is just as absurd for the Palestinians to surrender their desire for freedom from the oppression of Israel, and Israel's occupation of their land. That it is 60 years since the land was invaded doesn't matter at all.

There was never a state called Palestina. Cut the crap. Last two were the Ottoman Empire and the Brittish Mandate. Both togheder lasted for more than 400 years. If you're going back in hystory then we would give the land back to who? Italy as descendent of romans? Greece as descendent of Alexander the Great? Iran as descendent of persians? Or hmmm Israel as descendent of... haha!

The fact that the people in the area has the right to self determination doesn't include spreading lies. They should have their country, yes. But in this case, fighting because one or another occupied their lands should include Jordan too. After all there is Palestine too. Not that Jordan would have helped the palestinian people a lot. They still didn't offered to "donate" trhe land back to a Palestinian state. They still didn't offered to supply them with life support. They still leave them to live in cubicles in ****ty conditions. They still don't offer to build up the region so they could live in decent conditions...

Should the people of England risen up and killed the government because they were perpetrating a war with a much more powerful enemy, that was killing civillians in response?

England and the allies were killing civilians too. They carpet bombed my town 3 times during WW2. A strategically low importance town. But it was war ... you know... war. Heh...

their desire for freedom from the oppression

Freedom has nothing to do with that. Not even land or religion. It's all about other interests and the ones who fuel this conflict don't care about civilians on either side.

Hell, even you don't care about freedom in general. Take a look at the few words Nemo and I exchanged and you'll understand. You all care about the day's hype and you should wake up and realise it's a mass media promotion. You might even win the promotion's jackpot if you're blind enough.

[WolfDGrey]

I'll turn to fiction, and quote

Then you should turn to the roots and change the word "robot" with "human":

"A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm"
Isaac Asimov

Now who would be to blame? I see you dare to cast the first stone?

[stoffi]

WolfDgrey, you keep saying I'm spreading propaganda and half-lies, but have yet to disprove anything I've said. I'd prefer that YOU stop spreading opinions without root in reality. You can't just throw out comments without backing them up with something, like that article about the jewish terrorist groups which didn't have a source posted to it, even though I asked for it 4-5 times. In other words, the article comes from www.IloveIsrael.com or www.killpalestine.com

[Osiris]

Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."


Qur'an 4:11 "Allah directs you in regard of your Children's (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females.... These are settled portions ordained by Allah."



Qur'an 4:15 "If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them."



Bukhari:V3B48N826 "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes.' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind.'"


Ishaq:584 "Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman."



Qur'an 24:6 "And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth."

Well if we're going to start using scripture to prove that people are evil, what about Jewish scripture? I recently happened to be reading about capital punishment in the Old Testament (and therefore The Torah) and these reasons God tells you to kill are good:

• A male who was not circumcised: Genesis 17:14
• Eating leavened bread during the Feast of Unleavened Bread: Exodus 12:15
• Manufacturing anointing oil: Exodus 30:33
• Engaging in ritual animal sacrifices other than at the temple: Leviticus 17:1-9
• Consuming blood: Leviticus 17:10. This would include eating rare meat.
• Eating peace offerings while ritually unclean: Leviticus 7:20
• Waiting too long before consuming sacrifices: Leviticus 19:5-8
• Sexual activity with a woman who is menstruating: Leviticus 20:18
• Going to the temple in an unclean state: Numbers 19:13
• Persons teaching another religion: Deuteronomy 13:1-11
• A prophet whose prophecy does not come true: Deuteronomy 18:22
• Gluttony and excessive drinking: Deuteronomy 21:2

[Osiris]

Allonons, I can only assume you read a lot of Israeli propaganda, because your views are ridiculous. Israel is acting like a spoilt little **** child and that's all there is to it. It's a medium-sized fish and a small pond that likes to throw its weight around so it can believe it's really a big fish. That's not to say those attacking Israel are justified (although honestly I can imagine myself firing a rocket or two if I had to put up with the crap Israel deals out), but it is a small number of Palestinians actively working to harm Israel, whereas the entire Israeli government and military is working to harm Palestine.

[WolfDGrey]

WolfDgrey, you keep saying I'm spreading propaganda and half-lies,

Not only half lies but whole lies too.

Yesterday, a UN-worker was shot and killed/murdered by Israel in Gaza close to the border, while he was distributing food.

I showed you that the only foreign killed by that time was an Ukrainian woman who was married to a palestinian guy.

630 children!

By that time there were 520 casualities.

Then november 4th, Israel kills a bunch of Hamas ppl ,breaking the CF.

It was demostrated that Hamas have lauched several rockets before that. So it's not Israel who broke the CF on Nov. 4th. But regardless of the facts you say that.

800-900 children are now injured/dead. 5 Israelis are dead.

Data presented in a propaganda manner, mixing dead and wounded on one side, so it looks more. Typical war propaganda, all countries used and still use that technique to mislead and get emotional response for their campaign.

So there... one example from each said by you: Lies, half lies and propaganda.

[allonons]

This is the bottom line, until Hamas,Hezzbulah,Iran and who ever else does not accept Israel right to exsist there will never be peace,and the Antisemitism in this forum from Stoffi among others, reeks with a leftist weak minded mentality that will eventually get your head chopped off (only of course after your tortured).

You people disgust me,keep up the illusion of a pacifistic dream of peace with a religous based fanatical movement who's basic tenet is to kill and or convert all others in the world to thier way of thinking....sound familuar .....sure it does Bah let them take over Israel ,it will only be a short matter of time until they push west through europe and that wont take long due too the weak euro trash leftist amongst that population.


I for one will not be there Stoffi when they take over Denmark ,dont call on us for help fend for yourselves.

[WolfDGrey]

will only be a short matter of time until they push west through europe

That is stupid. I love the nazi trends... all are occupied with the blacks, the jews, the arabs, the whites... and the all forget about the world they live in.

If you really really want somebody to fear of, think about how many the chinese are and the potential for their expansion once their land will be really insufficient... hahaha!

[Magn]

That is stupid. I love the nazi trends... all are occupied with the blacks, the jews, the arabs, the whites... and the all forget about the world they live in.

If you really really want somebody to fear of, think about how many the chinese are and the potential for their expansion once their land will be really insufficient... hahaha!

Actually, I believe they tightened their population control so they are problably at their worst right now.

Hopefully, they'll soon realize that if they try to make a significant part of their population live the American dream, the world will come to an abrupt end... Unless we manage to make the American dream more viable for the world we live in that is. Frankly though, I'm not sure technological advances will give us the momentum to achieve that in the short term (if ever).

But these ressources vs demand issues are unimportant. Lets talk about Israel and whats left of Palestine killing each other in petty squabbles (btw, my money's on Israel for the winner as long as they keep some healthy dosage of Western support that is) on a tiny spot of the planet barely bigger than a dot. I'm not sure how useful it is, but many people here seem to find that infinitely more entertaining.

[Nemo]

It was demostrated that Hamas have lauched several rockets before that. So it's not Israel who broke the CF on Nov. 4th. But regardless of the facts you say that.

I heard it was Israel who attacked first.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7709603.stm

Magn, the reason people keep the tab on this conflict is because it's been going on from time immemorial, back when humans started farming and building small towns. You'd seriously think people would eventually lose interest after so many generations.

[WolfDGrey]

I heard it was Israel who attacked first.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7709603.stm

Sure... because you look up only the data convenient to you.

The truce agreement between Hamas and Israel started on June 19th 2008.
Here are SOME (there are too many) of the following events in June and July regarding Gaza:

June 23, 2008
A mortar shell was fired from Gaza late Monday night and landed on the Israeli side of the border fence. No organization claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 24, 2008
Three Qassam rockets fired from Gaza on Tuesday struck the Israeli border town of Sderot and its environs, causing no serious injuries but constituting the first serious breach of a five-day-old truce between Israel and Hamas.

International Heral Tribune:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/.../25mideast.php


June 26, 2008
A rocket hit an open area of the industrial zone outside Sderot. There were no reports of injuries or damage, according to army sources. The Fatah-affiliated Aksa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 27, 2008
Early on Friday, two mortar shells were fired at Israel from the northern Gaza Strip.

June 28, 2008
Mortar shells were fired at the Karni crossing. No one claims responsibility for the attacks. Israel blocks all shipments into Gaza except fuel, in response to the rocket and mortar attacks

June 30, 2008
A rocket falls near the town of Mefalsim. Nobody claims responsibility for the attack. In response Israel once again closes the crossings that had previously been reopened on June 29, 2008

July 2, 2008
There were no rocket or mortar attacks so Israel reopens the four Gaza crossings on Wednesday July 2.

July 3, 2008
A rocket lands in an open area north of Sderot. A previously unknown organization calling itself the "Badr Forces" claims responsibility for the attack.

July 7, 2008
A mortar shell is fired at Israel from Gaza on Monday and lands near the Karni crossing.

July 8, 2008
After two mortar attacks from Gaza at the Sufa crossing, one fell just inside Gaza and the other at the crossing. Israel closed all the crossing. After an Egyptian request they reopened the crossings. Hours after the crossings opened at noon, militants fired another shell into Israel, causing no casualties or damage, the Israeli military said. Israel kept the crossings open. No Palestinian group immediately claimed responsibility.

July 10, 2008
Two Qassam rockets were fired at Israel, but caused no damage, after an unarmed Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades infiltrator was killed at the Kissufim crossing.

July 12, 2008
A rocket lands in an open area in Sha'ar Hanegev regional council. Nobody claims responsibility for the attack

July 13, 2008
Two mortar shells are misfired and they land on the Gaza side of the border security fence in the Nahal Oz region. Nobody claims responsibility for the attack. Israel responds by only closing the Nahal Oz and Sufa crossings.

July 15, 2008
A mortar hit is identified.

July 25, 2008
A rocket misfires and lands in Gaza near the Kissufim crossing.

July 29, 2008
Another rocket is launched from Gaza and mistakenly lands in Gaza.

July 31, 2008
Again, a rocket misfires and lands in Gaza.


And just a summary for:

August 1-31st
In the month of August 7 rockets and 12 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel.

September 1-30th
3 rockets and 2 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel.

October 11th
A single rocket was launched from Gaza into Israel.

Between October 29th and November 6th, 48 rockets and 21 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel. The first of these were fired after the Israeli operation on the Gaza side of the border on the 4th of November to prevent an abduction for which Hamas had dug a tunnel, according to Israeli sources. During this operation, 7 Hamas militia were killed inside Gaza. Hamas considered this attack a "massive breach of the truce".

(my comment, mocking Hamas: "NO ****, the rockets were not a breach of the truce because were lauched by us... but the other side must have it's hands tied while we do whatever we want")

November 6-12th
Israel attacks a 250 meter tunnel going from Gaza and under its border, claiming the tunnel is designed to capture additional Israeli soldiers and hold them hostage. Six Gaza fighters are killed and four Israeli special forces wounded. Hamas responds by firing 30 Qassam rockets at Israel. The truce agreed to five months ago is starting to flounder. Between November 5th and November 12th, 22 rockets and 9 mortars were fired into Israel.

November 12-19th
In this week 62 rockets and 26 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel.

November 21st
A rocket hit the Ashkelon industrial area

November 22-23rd
Four Qassam rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel over the weekend

November 24-25th
Two Qassam rockets landed in Israel.

November 26-27th
Four Qassam rockets landed in the western Negev.



And so on... So in fact there is pretty serious data from serious sources to show the timeline and who and when considers the cease fire break occured. So... PLEASE, keep the cool head and stick to real data.

(List pulled from Wiki, except the link and news to International Heral Tribune.)