Human Sage Example Province

[Catwalk]

You got me there, this stuff is kinky!

On topic, homes become quite useless after you reach the amount needed for max base BE. vines is way above that amount, and it'll get even worse in conflicts with fluctuating numbers.

[vines]

vines can you please address the issue of how your having a lower draft to have a higher BE actually makes your province stronger compared to someone the same size with a higher draft and more military units trained...

I fail to see how the BE reduction (say 25% reduction if you like) will make such a significant impact that the province with the higher military could not attack and defend at a better level than having a lower draft and the same building structure...

Then add into the mix that people will compensate in other ways in the areas they wish to focus on - overbulding etc to make up for lower BE effects and tell me how again it is stronger not to run a strategy more specific to the role at hand (attacker in this case)

Umm the only reason my draft rate is low is because I keep gaining land. It has nothing to do with my BE. In fact my province can support a 70% draft without going below 100%RawBE. However I will say one should have a strong army to protect one's province, however, if one's BE starts to drop below 100%rawBE that means your military is over burdening your province infrastructure. If you have a weak infrastructure everything about your province is weaker.

My province is an example of how to keep a strong military while not over burdening infrastructure. Excalibus if you would watch and study the posting of my example province you would gleam this. However this is not the case. Instead you have preconceived notions about my example province. I know this to be fact because you keep saying I have a small army. If you had even looked at the stats I have been posting you would see that SageWay does not have a small military.

[Catwalk]

Your assumption that maintaining 100% base BE is optimal is quite flawed. The opposite is the case, you're losing out if you have more peasants than needed to maintain 100% base BE. Also, 13.7 mpa is rather low.

[vines]

My strategy is about running a optimal province. A 100%rawBE is only a part of that.

[_greenie]

My strategy is about running a optimal province. A 100%rawBE is only a part of that.

i know this is simply the case of unstopable force vs immovable object, but...

due to the linear way in which BE works, there is no reason to run that many homes, unless you specifically want the extra pop =)

[vines]

You know what happens to the unstoppable force? It get's pushed back. Because for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Greenie no one is saying you need to run your province this way. This is for people that want little bit help that can help them run their province. Don't use it if you don't want to.

[Excalibus]

vines I looked at your various posts of your province in this thread... can't believe i spent so much time reading all the posts before I actually asked the questions...

I too could run a heap of homes and have 100% BE but then the tradeoff for me would be that I would lose out on the benefits of the other buildings I do have...

I do run some homes - enough to keep my BE in the high 80's and for you to suggest you can run a 70% draft and maintain 100% BE can only be accomplished by running what I would consider too many homes with the view of simply lowering the total jobs...

I will prefer to run some smaller % homes for the birth rate mods and the slight impact on the jobs side and max population while having a lot more rax, banks and TG's to improve my attacking ability and growth regime...

And that is where the question I ask you to demonstrate how your province is fundamentally stronger...

I can run a prov with 75% BE and a fairly high draft (80% or more non peasants) and have an even stronger force simply by running more TG's / Forts to compensate for the bad BE while your province might look nice and neat with 100% BE your military would still not be as strong as mine with the extra troops drafted and trained

I am waiting to see the proof that you could run 70% draft and 100% BE and still have a stronger military force as I would have on a higher draft lower BE with builds done to compensate for the lower BE...

Please demonstrate this and not just say watch my province... surely it cannot be that hard to prove to me that you are correct and I am wrong in my thinking?

[vines]

I'm running 40% with SageWay and I have all the buildings I need to make a strong attacker.
I can have a 70% with 40% homes. I don't lose any income for drafting to 70% because those jobs are already being taken up by the homes. My income goes down little bit because my military expenses go up. Not but of any jobs lost, no jobs are lost.

You will not be able to get more ME from your Forts/Tgs than I would be able to get. You are telling me at 75%BE you are going to being able to get more than +19.85%ME from forts/Tgs. It is very unlikely. The difference is that I can easily raze some guilds and put them into forts/Tgs if I wanted more ME.

I wanted to do a few more land grabs, however, okay I'll do you a favor. I get 70% draft.

Oh I almost for got today is the day I post up the stats.

[Ezzerland]

ok, sorry for the late update. Here is the new stats for my prov atm.

I'm still not full draft, got a bit of training to do, etc.
The monarch in my kingdom said he'll be watching the fight :P

Vines - If I use these things that you say are not beneficial to defeat you and I am successful, will you concede that you have been wrong?

eg- I will focus my sci more in some categories than in others. I will use more higher ME buildings instead of dungeons. I will run lower homes with a higher draft and have a lower RawBE.

In the above scenario, I'll bet I can hit/defend my prov better, and maintain either an equal, OR Better economy than you. In this case, it means I would be more optimal, yes?



-- cb --
The Province of Eliminating Vines (##:##)
[http://www.utopiatemple.com Angel v1.94 Alpha 1]

Server: Genesis #19
Utopian Date: July 14th, YR7 (23% in the day)
RL Date: February 11th, 2009 (13:44 GMT)

Ruler Name: The Wise Lord Pest Management Inc
Personality & Race: The Sage, Human
Land: 1,115 Acres
Money: 578gc (50,182gc daily income)
Food: 114,049 bushels
Runes: 15,908 runes
Population: 27,246 citizens (24.44 per Acre)
Peasants: 13,994 (102% Building Efficiency)
Trade Balance: 0gc (0% tax rate)

ME+Stance (no spells): 125.73% off. / 105% def.
Soldiers: 1,644 (46.3% estimated draft rate)
Swordsmen: 0
Archers: 7,679 (48,378 defense)
Knights: 2,195 (16,558 offense / 6,914 defense)
War-Horses: 5,025 (up to 4,827 additional offense)
Prisoners: 0

Total Modified Offense: 23,452 (21.03 per Acre)
Practical (100% elites): 23,452 (21.03 per Acre)
Total Modified Defense: 57,018 (51.14 per Acre)
Practical (0% elites): 50,104 (44.94 per Acre)

Thieves: 1,110 (1.00 per Acre / 100% Stealth)
Wizards: 624 (0.56 per Acre / 95% Mana)

Crystal-Ball on your province will show:
Max. Possible Thieves/Wizards: 3,030 (2.72 / Acre)
Estimated Thieves Number: 1,212 (1.09 per Acre)
Estimated Wizards Number: 455 (0.41 per Acre)

** Networth Table: **
Total Networth: 146,060gc (131.00 per Acre)
Land (90% built): 56,865gc (39%) - [15+40gc]
Archers: 46,074gc (32%) - [6gc]
Peasants: 13,994gc (10%) - [1gc]
Knights: 11,524gc (8%) - [5.25gc]
Science (estimated): 5,186gc (4%) - [1/92gc]
Thieves: 4,440gc (3%) - [4gc]
War Horses: 3,015gc (2%) - [0.6gc]
Wizards: 2,496gc (2%) - [4gc]
Soldiers: 2,466gc (2%) - [1.5gc]
Money: 1gc (0%) - [1/1000gc]

Buildings: 1,036gc to build, 629gc to raze
Away bonus: 69,970gc (12h) / 209,910gc (20h)



-- SoM --
Military Intelligence on Eliminating Vines (##:##)
[http://www.utopiatemple.com Angel v1.94 Alpha 1]

Server: Genesis #19
Ruler & Race: Lord Pest Management Inc, Human.

** Summary **
Non-Peasants: 54%
Efficiency (SoM): 125.7% off., 105% def., 100% raw
Net Offense at Home (from Utopia): 24,943
Net Defense at Home (from Utopia): 57,018
Modified Attack points (calculated): 23,447
Modified Defense points (calculated): 57,018

** Standing Army (At Home) **
Soldiers: 1,644 (2,067 offense / 1,726 defense)
Archers: 7,679 (48,378 defense)
Knights: 2,195 (16,555 offense / 6,914 defense)
War Horses: 5,025 (up to 4,826 additional offense)
Total Attack points: 23,447
Total Defense points: 57,018

** Troops in Training **
Knights: 3,048 (22,988 offense / 9,601 defense)
Next 9 hours: 132 131 131 132 132 132 132 132 132...



-- Survey --
Buildings Report of Eliminating Vines (##:##)
[http://www.utopiatemple.com Angel v1.94 Alpha 1]

Server: Genesis #19
Ruler Name: Lord Pest Management Inc
Personality: The Sage
Race: Human
Building Efficiency: 102.1%
Kingdom Stance: Normal

1. Homes: 110 (9.9%)
2. Farms: 88 (7.9%)
3. Mills: 164 (14.7%)
4. Banks: 196 (17.6%)
5. Training Grounds: 55 (4.9%) + 5 in progress (+0.4%)
6. Armouries: 197 (17.7%)
7. Guilds: 131 (11.7%)
8. Towers: 39 (3.5%)
9. Stables: 130 (11.7%)

Total Land: 1,115 Acres (99.6% built)
In Progress: 5 Acres (0.4%)

** Effects Summary (Available Buildings Only) **
1. +880 maximum population, +36.32% birth rate
2. Produce 7,862 bushels (9,827 with FL)
3. -51.23% building costs, -38.43% exploration gc
4. 6,254gc, +23.11% income
5. +7.18% offense bonus
6. -22.28% training costs, -29.7% draft costs, -29.7% wages
7. Training about 2.68 wizards per hour
8. Produce 597 runes per hour
9. Produce 133 horses/hour, hold 7,800 horses

** Effects Summary (Including Future Buildings) **
5. +7.8% offense bonus



-- SoS --
Science Intelligence on Eliminating Vines (##:##)
[http://www.utopiatemple.com Angel v1.94 Alpha 1]

Server: Genesis #19
Land: 1,115 Acres
Books to Allocate: 0 books

** Effects Summary (Known Science Only) **
8.9% Income (28,616 points)
5.5% Building Effectiveness (21,499 points)
3.5% Population Limits (20,278 points)
21.9% Food Production (5,332 points)
1.7% Gains in Combat (1,000 points)
7.1% Thievery Effectiveness (1,000 points)
7.1% Magic Effectiveness & Rune Production (1,000 points)

** Science Points in Progress **
Alchemy: 19,573 points in progress
Tools: 1,115 points in progress

[NoseBlood]

ye go own him whit mills

[Excalibus]

well the overall TG's ME might be a little lower -

Building Efficiency: 78.1%

My OME at the current time with 150% payrate and 16.2% TG's and fortified stance is 142.1%

So i suspect when I up the payrate to 200% and if needed set an additonal 2% TG's building that will get close to 150% or so OME

Then on top of that high draft (well right now it's only at 76% of total pop is non peasants but that will go up to over 81% as i reach 75% draft for military units)

How will your province fare with as far as the OME etc is concerned as to run the same OME modifiers as I am and maintain 100% BE given that so much of your land will need to be devoted to keeping total jobs low especially if you want to maximise your draft potential...

And don't raise your draft for my benefit if you truely believe that your province is stronger with the lower draft...

Off. Points 63.42 OPA (off of throne page)
Def. Points 83.78 DPA (off throne page whem my army is home)
and this is with pretty average sciences not uber pumped in the science department at all actually...

What I meant by proof is show me here using the same methods I have just shown you why I believe that having a low BE high military draft strat is actually stronger...

[vines]

The Province of SageWay (##:##)
[http://www.utopiatemple.com Angel v1.94 Alpha 1]

Server: Genesis #19
Utopian Date: July 16th, YR7 (90% in the day)
RL Date: February 11th, 2009 (16:24 GMT)

Ruler Name: The Wise Lord Tatic
Personality & Race: The Sage, Human
Land: 1,607 Acres
Money: 136,439gc (68,169gc daily income)
Food: 222,492 bushels
Runes: 17,457 runes
Population: 43,076 citizens (26.81 per Acre)
Peasants: 19,010 (109% Building Efficiency)
Trade Balance: -115,026gc (0% tax rate)

ME+Stance (no spells): 148.26% off. / 132.72% def.
Soldiers: 2,044 (53.3% estimated draft rate)
Swordsmen: 0
Archers: 11,916 (94,887 defense)
Knights: 6,571 (58,455 offense / 26,162 defense)
War-Horses: 8,128 (up to 12,051 additional offense)
Prisoners: 1,080 (4,804 offense)

Total Modified Offense: 78,340 (48.75 per Acre)
Practical (100% elites): 78,340 (48.75 per Acre)
Total Modified Defense: 123,762 (77.01 per Acre)
Practical (0% elites): 97,600 (60.73 per Acre)

Thieves: 2,412 (1.50 per Acre / 100% Stealth)
Wizards: 1,123 (0.70 per Acre / 49% Mana)

Crystal-Ball on your province will show:
Max. Possible Thieves/Wizards: 5,663 (3.52 / Acre)
Estimated Thieves Number: 2,265 (1.41 per Acre)
Estimated Wizards Number: 849 (0.53 per Acre)

** Networth Table: **
Total Networth: 237,691gc (147.91 per Acre)
Land (90% built): 81,957gc (34%) - [15+40gc]
Archers: 71,496gc (30%) - [6gc]
Knights: 34,498gc (15%) - [5.25gc]
Peasants: 19,010gc (8%) - [1gc]
Thieves: 9,648gc (4%) - [4gc]
Science (estimated): 8,511gc (4%) - [1/92gc]
War Horses: 4,877gc (2%) - [0.6gc]
Wizards: 4,492gc (2%) - [4gc]
Soldiers: 3,066gc (1%) - [1.5gc]
Money: 136gc (0%) - [1/1000gc]

Buildings: 1,163gc to build, 752gc to raze
Away bonus: 95,050gc (12h) / 285,150gc (20h)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Science Intelligence on SageWay (##:##)
[http://www.utopiatemple.com Angel v1.94 Alpha 1]

Server: Genesis #19
Books to Allocate: 1,424 books

** Effects Summary (Known Science Only) **
12.9% Income (86,994 points)
9.2% Building Effectiveness (86,989 points)
6% Population Limits (86,983 points)
74.3% Food Production (88,681 points)
12.9% Gains in Combat (86,984 points)
55.2% Thievery Effectiveness (86,990 points)
55.2% Magic Effectiveness & Rune Production (86,993 points)

** Science Points in Progress **
Alchemy: 2,325 points in progress
Tools: 2,330 points in progress
Housing: 2,336 points in progress
Food: 7,046 points in progress
Military: 2,335 points in progress
Crime: 2,329 points in progress
Channeling: 2,326 points in progress

--------------------------------------------------------------

Buildings Report of SageWay (##:##)
[http://www.utopiatemple.com Angel v1.94 Alpha 1]

Server: Genesis #19
Ruler Name: Lord Tatic
Personality: The Sage
Race: Human
Building Efficiency: 109.1%
Kingdom Stance: Normal

1. Homes: 570 (35.5%) + 73 in progress (+4.5%)
2. Farms: 58 (3.6%) + 13 in progress (+0.8%)
3. Training Grounds: 200 (12.4%) + 25 in progress (+1.6%)
4. Forts: 200 (12.4%) + 25 in progress (+1.6%)
5. Guilds: 143 (8.9%) + 18 in progress (+1.1%)
6. Towers: 38 (2.4%) + 10 in progress (+0.6%)
7. Stables: 143 (8.9%) + 18 in progress (+1.1%)
8. Dungeons: 73 (4.5%)

Total Land: 1,607 Acres (88.7% built)
In Progress: 182 Acres (11.3%)

** Effects Summary (Available Buildings Only) **
1. +4,560 maximum population, +99.89% birth rate
2. Produce 5,537 bushels (6,921 with FL)
3. +17.83% offense bonus
4. +17.83% defense bonus
5. Training about 3.12 wizards per hour
6. Produce 622 runes per hour
7. Produce 156 horses/hour, hold 8,580 horses
8. 1,460 prisoners (4,380 offense, 730gc, 730 jobs)

** Effects Summary (Including Future Buildings) **
1. +5,144 maximum population, +100% birth rate
2. Produce 6,778 bushels (8,472 with FL)
3. +19.7% offense bonus
4. +19.7% defense bonus
5. Training about 3.51 wizards per hour
6. Produce 786 runes per hour
7. Produce 176 horses/hour, hold 9,660 horses

---------------------------------------------------------------------

*****************************************************
I just got 182 acres in. I was waiting for it before I posted up my stats. I was planing on doing another land grab but I guess I will wait for Ezzerland to caught up. I am going to try my best to wait for you. But I don't like just sitting around for too long. That is time I could be using to take land.
*****************************************************

[VT2]

Yes, your 45 OPA is most impressive, vines.

[Catwalk]

But this is not an optimal province. Are you listening to anything we're saying? Do you understand why 100% raw BE is not optimal? With 40% homes, all peasants beyond the first 10 per acre give no BE benefit. And this will be even worse in war, with fluctuating numbers.

[vines]

VT2 what is more impressive is how I use that 45 opa to get max gains.

Catwalk I do not understand what you are trying to say or the point you are trying to make.

I'm going to try my very best to wait for Ezzerland to catch up. I'll try to wait two weeks that should be enough time.