Roleplayer's Message Board

[Jolly Rensha]

zed - I'll try not to be harsh...

You don't use punctuation even remotely close to properly. Your posts are like one run on sentence. Basic punctuation symbols are as follows: . the period; , comma; ! exclamation; and ?, the question mark.

Did you get good marks in school, or is english your first language? If you are in australia, it should be, but I would be surprised if you got past a C-...

I hate to be so mean, but no matter how blunt we attempt to be, you don't get it. You are not a good writer, roleplayer, or listener. Perhaps you should move onto something you ARE good at. :)

[Arctic Phoenix]

See, I still find music inspirational for getting my mind focused. Whether it was preparing to dive into studies, focus on a design challenge at work, or sit down and write on URP. I agree that the majority of the time I require silence during any of those processes. But leading up to it, it's often difficult to just dive in. I can't flip off a baseball game and immediately lose myself in a character - it takes a bit of mental preparation, and the aforementioned music helps me. No one else has a similar ritual?

Zed: It's kind of unfortunate. Five years ago you probably could have lost yourself in obscurity. There were a dozen major threads and new stories cropping up each day. So many different people, personalities and levels of experience. These days are a bit different. While I'm sure those RPers left appreciate new members, mentoring lackluster writers is not a priority... especially those who don't yet have a grasp on syntax, spelling or grammar.. much less pacing, character development or logic.

[Drice]

I have to say that i tend to listen to music that fits the mood of the scene that I am writing. Fighting scenes are punk rock (Linkin Park, Hollywood Undead, Egypt Central) sad scenes are country lol.

Zed: Since you joined my thread I guess I will weigh in. I have glanced at a few of your other posts and I have read the one you left in my thread and I do see some growth and potential. You still seem to lack the concept of punctuation and you get in a rush. Just be patient with your writing. Slow down and let it flow in a rythm if you rush it the reader gets lost and so does your meaning. While you see the scene clearly in your head the reader tends to have a different perspective.

How much you improve is up to you. If you cant see or admit your mistakes then I don't see much hope however if you are willing to work on it then by all means continue trying. Please before posting always re read your post as most common mistakes will be found and corrected the first time through. Also describe the scene, description is great and it will help you focus on your specific idea. For example in the post that you placed in my thread, what does your character see? What do they hear? How does the inn smell how does the city look. What does the bartender look like? Was his face burning with rage at seeing the deadbeat father of his grandson walk into his establishment as if nothing in the world was wrong?

These are but examples and you don't have to describe each one but describing the scene is important in writing.

[Shari Tana]

Music is nice for work for me. I can't stand a lack of some kind of meaningful background noise. I don't even care what it is. Lady GaGa to Clint Black to Led Zepplin and back again. If it's got a beat (and I can understand to words) I listen to it. Although, I'm pretty hooked on Poker Face right now.

When I'm writing, though, it's a little peculiar. For instance, I'll be at work and think of a great post to write up when I get home. One that really exciting and has a lot of interesting phrasing and developments, but as soon as I sit down and open the browser, all that goes away and I end up writing something completely different. There's no real preparation or brainstorming. I'm simply struck with an idea I was to get across for that post and let my fingers go. Admittedly, that idea isn't always clear, but I think my writing is pretty good.

Unfortunately, I'm also really susceptible to writer's blocks. If there's no magic after I read the thread, it's hard to come up with a post I think is acceptable. Usually, I'll put it off another day and hope I think of something :/

[Geco]

Wow, never meant for Zed to get a public critique like this. So glad you all felt compelled to speak your mind. I told Rensha this last night, but I was fairly blunt with Zed and pulled no punches. I think it's hard enough to be asked to "please not come here anymore", agree to it with amazing class and humility I might add, then come here and have to be thrown to the wolves. It's one thing to have a private conversation with someone, and another to have the same type of conversation in a public forum. I understand you guys are probably just trying to be informative and/or constructive, but you don't kick a man when he's down. See Drice's post if you want a good example of how to do it.

Zed, I have to say your first post in Drice's thread is already much better than the one's in mine, so don't give up on it. From what I said to you last night, I think I tried to point out every problem and didn't do it in a very good way. These other guys have listed some flaws, and there are 2 in particular which are crucial for me.

1) Grammar and Syntax. If you actually read the sentences as written it's an automatic source of frustration to any reader because they just make no sense and are terribly formatted. However, I tried reading that post and added proper punctuation, breaking up the combined sentences, and it was fine. Still a lot to work on, but it's a good base. Therefore, priority 1 has to be focusing on this issue. Constructing proper sentences, using punctuation correctly, because if you can't do that there is no hope.

2) Concentration. You seem really enthusiastic, but it gets the better of you. You rush to post, rather than taking your time. When I talked to you last night and told you I'd give you another shot and to take your time and write up your post, you posted 2 paragraphs 10 minutes later. You really need to stop and take your time. THINK about what you are writing. Those questions Drice listed can be very helpful. Also, I'm not sure if you do this, but if you are writing on your phone, STOP NOW! If you want to jot something down so you have it for later, by all means, but do not post from there. I could never imagine doing that, or any other serious writer doing so. A phone is not a tool for writing. AND RE-READ POSTS BEFORE POSTING and EDIT THEM. Make time to do that.

Start with those 2, and we'll be able to work with you from there ^_^

[zedpcee]

Hey geco I gotta say this but drice did I lot better job of explaining than you the first time lol and thanks for not killing/abandoning my char also my phone has a keyboard same as a computer and im a faster typer on it lol

@ Drice thanks you explained a lot

[Arctic Phoenix]

I understand you guys are probably just trying to be informative and/or constructive, but you don't kick a man when he's down.

One thing that one quickly learns in a design school is to not take critique personally (as well as not dish out personal insults, but instead stick to the work at hand). It is all too easy to pamper someone, sugarcoat criticism, and let them slide by. It's another thing to give someone a bare bones honest critique - so much more meaningful than hollow words of consolation. I'm not advocating insulting the man, just giving it to him straight. His writing kind of sucks, and it in no way inspired me to want to interact with his character. I stated my own perspective of not wanting to take on the mentorship required to bring him up to That Post Actually Made Sense level.

I'm sure there are good ideas and character development ready to spring, there is just massive lack of communication. I'm just hesitant to endure another fellow lobbing molotov cocktails onto the deck of our own airship (an ancient reference...).

[Geco]

I understand the perspective Phoenix, and it's one I believe in too. I'm, almost to my own detriment at times, very committed to being 100% honest with people. But there are a couple things that are very different.

1) This isn't a school of any kind. Learning that happens here happens out of its own accord. No one comes here and writes with the expectation that they are going to publicly be critiqued (unless they ask for it), and critiqued in a, "here's the cold hard truth of it" manner.

2) What did you have to gain? Again, you and no one else is his mentor or teacher, you already stated, as you did again, that you didn't want to put in the effort to guide him along, there's no personal interest invested in this for you... so why do it? Again, I think it's one thing to send Zed a private message with your feedback, and you can be as straight forward as you like, but to do so in a public forum is, to me, kicking someone when they are down.

Zed - I told you I was a bad teacher =P I think a certain way, and find it very easy to teach people who think similarly, but occasionally I run into very different thinking people and I just can't do it at all. And Zed, I figured your phone had a keyboard, but that's my point, it's not meant for this. By you saying you're faster with it, that's actually why you should be trying to stop. Taking the time to go to a computer and type something out will slow you down and force you to focus and think more about what you're writing. No one writes stories on phones.

[zedpcee]

@geco well a lot of the time I can't use my computer, because we only got one and other people like to sit on it for hours so yeah. I'm thinking about investing in a laptop soon. Just don't have the time lately with other stuff happening in my life I'd rather not mention. That's part of the reason I first began writing About 1,2,3 years ago now, I never seemed able to get past 5 pages. And yeah, I was looking through the forums here for advice on utopia and noticed Roleplaying right down the bottom. I checked it out and it was full of great stories and people too, not sucking up much. eh.

Like I mentioned before I joined another RP site so I could get better. But it doesn't seem to be working because all the players are of a similar level it seems, some do short posts which don't give me much to work with makes it hard to grow.

@ everyone POST ON DRICE'S THREAD! Please? Anyone? Someone? Unless you've all got writers block? Otherwise you should be able to make a great post there.

[Arctic Phoenix]

I understand the perspective Phoenix, and it's one I believe in too. I'm, almost to my own detriment at times, very committed to being 100% honest with people. But there are a couple things that are very different.

1) This isn't a school of any kind. Learning that happens here happens out of its own accord. No one comes here and writes with the expectation that they are going to publicly be critiqued (unless they ask for it), and critiqued in a, "here's the cold hard truth of it" manner.

2) What did you have to gain? Again, you and no one else is his mentor or teacher, you already stated, as you did again, that you didn't want to put in the effort to guide him along, there's no personal interest invested in this for you... so why do it? Again, I think it's one thing to send Zed a private message with your feedback, and you can be as straight forward as you like, but to do so in a public forum is, to me, kicking someone when they are down.

The root of where we diverge is whether or not to post this on the forum or utilize PM. I disagree that any of us are kicking him when he's down by addressing this on the public forum. No one dragged him here to be embarrassed in front of our massive community. Anyone in the Skysail thread fully understands what is going on. I wont get into the ethics of the nature of a forum (anonymity of the internet, public place for discussion, etc).

As for #1 and #2, I couldn't disagree more. The former should come naturally, and we should always be striving to improve. Where is this invisible line between okay grammar and poor grammar that causes us to step up and refuse a post? No, we all make mistakes and should be called on them. Critique can be as simple as a "I love how your character XYZ has evolved over your last 10 posts - was much of that planned, or did you adapt per Whoists post?" Often we absorb this experience, yet neglect to discuss it after the fact.

#2 is a selfish one. What do I (or Rensha) have to gain by being <somewhat> harsh on the forums? Wishfully thinking - either inspiring the guy to buck up and produce something legible. More rationally - bluntly encouraging him to come back after addressing aforementioned issues of basic writing. We've all been there, enduring 3 full IC threads of awkwardness. You gave him multiple chances to steer his first few IC posts towards "hey, that's decent." Time for us to discuss the problem.

I don't think I'm going to convince you of my point of view, but I want to assure you I'm not trying to be a #@%&. I'll concede that it's harsh, but I don't think there is any breach of ethics in discussing this openly. It's healthy to have these conversations rather than sweep it under the rug, for when it happens again with someone new, we'll have a better idea of how to deal with the situation (and maybe that is: Let Geco address the person via PM early on before Rensha and Phoenix pounce).

[Geco]

You're right, we probably won't agree. I'm getting to the point of feeling that familiar frustration of wanting to write a hefty post filled with counterpoints (not to mention strangle something), but my better judgment is prevailing.

There's a simple concept I like for this situation, and that's just because you can doesn't mean you should. Is a forum built for this type of thing? Yes. Does that mean you have to be harsh with someone because you can? No.

URP is not a school. Does learning happen from participation, yes of course, but that does not give us the right as members or even, dare I say, wardens to lecture at will. I believe you're right, it's not just a GM thing, there are inherent standards of this community, but application of such defaults to the GM of the thread where the incident occurs. If this place had been built as a place as a school for role play or even writing, I would never have joined, and most likely neither would anyone else. We all did enough writing in school I'm sure.

I fundamentally disagree with your approach. I think you are exactly right when you say it's a selfish motive. I don't know you at all really, but I know psychologically the reason people provide 'feedback' in such a manner is rarely for the benefit of the individual they are address. It wounds, it belittles, and it's often ineffective. It's like bullying. Can it work, of course. But bullying is about making yourself feel bigger, and I think that's what this was.

When I look at what you guys posted, I sit here and think, why did they feel the need to do that? And why do it here? From how my mind works I see no need for it, and there was certainly nothing noble about it.

Maybe it's an American thing =P You damn Yanks always feel the need to express your rights even if there's no cause for doing so (e.g. the gun-wielders at the town hall meetings about health care). Had to take my potshot at you guys, sorry ^_^ haha

And, oddly, brings me back to my point. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

[Arctic Phoenix]

Interesting you've chosen to jump to conclusions concerning my own perspective, even going as far to compare me to the ignorant. Please, enlighten me as to how your stereotypes of Americans automatically refutes my rational perspective? I feel like you have not read my posts at all, and have ignored the logic I feel like I've spelled out blatantly. If you think you can reduce your argument to psychology 101 and assume I get my jollies from talking down to others, you're sorely mistaken.

I know psychologically the reason people provide 'feedback' in such a manner is rarely for the benefit of the individual they are address.

These are the same responses I'd hear architecture students using to comfort one another after someone critiques their projects. /Slaps forehead. Of course! The professor isn't trying to help them with critical thinking, just use his position of power maliciously to help him sleep at night, masking his own failed design career.

Now, I have no disagreement with your potshot at uneducated buffoons shouting nonsense in a public forum. What I find insulting is you referencing that during this particular discussion: a not-so-veiled dig at my intelligence.

I think your counterpoint,

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

brings it full circle to the very point I've made in each of my posts: it's a tool for learning and discussion. Yes, it's a smidge harsh, but should we be coddled? Let's revisit my comments and I'd like to see just what you take issue with.

OOC: Zed, you're making my eyes bleed from irrational logic and lack of reading/writing ability.

Zed: It's kind of unfortunate. Five years ago you probably could have lost yourself in obscurity. There were a dozen major threads and new stories cropping up each day. So many different people, personalities and levels of experience. These days are a bit different. While I'm sure those RPers left appreciate new members, mentoring lackluster writers is not a priority... especially those who don't yet have a grasp on syntax, spelling or grammar.. much less pacing, character development or logic.

I've said nothing that isn't accurate. He doesn't have a grasp of punctuation or grammar, and 5 years ago he could have found numerous threads to practice in. These days he has one/two. I'll give you eye-bleeding as possibly insulting. I think that was countered afterward with a humorous/ironic IC post.

----------------------------------------------------

This is spiraling out of control. I can step back, reassess and boil this down to:
"Is the recent criticism of poor writing inappropriate?"

After rereading Renshas post, I'll err on your perspective. He made some judgements outside of what Zed posted here. But I don't think my own comments are out of line, and I don't think critique should be out of the question. Rather, I feel like it can be healthy - both positive and negative criticism.

Edit: Btw, big grats on 100 posts :D

[Geco]

It took me long enough to get there ^_^ That's what you get for a 4 month hiatus.

I'm tempted to say, "lets drop it all together," and just move on, but I figure that's what most people would do, and I'm actually have much more fun discussing something that might cause a bit of friction rather than simply agreeing to disagree.

even going as far to compare me to the ignorant

Not sure how I did that exactly. If you're referring to the American quip, that was just a joke, or if you'd prefer psych 101 on it, my way of releasing my frustrations with the American political system and news media (which I should really prefix with entertainment, because that's what it has become). But, I bear my brothers and to the sisters to the south no true ill will and have found each one I've met very nice and normal.

These are the same responses I'd hear architecture students using to comfort one another after someone critiques their projects

Are you referring to public critiquing? I have no issue with harsh feedback, and indeed there are great lessons to be learned from it, and many great professors who do it. However, I believe there is a time and place. Perhaps you know a student well enough that you feel it appropriate to call them out in public, but I compare the feedback you and Ren gave much to someone who's walked into for a new group for the first time, tried to do whatever the group was doing, yes failed miserably, being asked by the group leader to leave, then having some of the group members list all his faults for him as he walks away.

In the context of the situation, I don't understand how posting your feedback in a public forum was needed. It could have been sent in private, he still would have got the message, so I'm back to asking why it was done?

I'm also a big believer that our experiences tend to shape who we are and what we believe, so maybe if public critique has been the norm for you for the past 4-6 years during your studies, it makes sense that it'd be perfectly acceptable. You've seen it, and probably seen it work well. That's a big assumption, but it's the only thing I have to work with at the moment.

brings it full circle to the very point I've made in each of my posts: it's a tool for learning and discussion. Yes, it's a smidge harsh, but should we be coddled? Let's revisit my comments and I'd like to see just what you take issue with.

a) I'm not refuting that it's a tool for learning and discussion, but as I said, it's a byproduct of our community, not the reason we're here. That is a big differentiator to me. If the sticky posts read, come RP with other members, learn to write better, and receive feedback on your skills, then that would make sense. I believe our purpose is to have fun first.

b) Actually during my posts I've mostly been referring to Ren's comments - I meant to state that explicitly but forgot to.

I think you've hit on my point/question of: was it appropriate? I don't think your own comments were out of line, the eye bleeding thing maybe a bit harsh ya, but otherwise was good feedback.

What I struggle with is why you needed to post it at all. Which brings us back to:

#2 is a selfish one. What do I (or Rensha) have to gain by being <somewhat> harsh on the forums? Wishfully thinking - either inspiring the guy to buck up and produce something legible. More rationally - bluntly encouraging him to come back after addressing aforementioned issues of basic writing. We've all been there, enduring 3 full IC threads of awkwardness. You gave him multiple chances to steer his first few IC posts towards "hey, that's decent." Time for us to discuss the problem.

And so I ask, why'd you have to post it publicly, and it's back to that inappropriate thing.

Honestly, still, I just don't really get what made you guys do it, so to speak. It's one thing if he kept posting not respecting my request for him to stop, or if he'd asked for the feedback, but in my eyes he graciously bowed out, said he'd tried to get better, but even after that you guys still posted.

I think my mind is going crazy trying to think about this too much, and this is all probably a symptom of me not having had a good argument with someone in a long time (damn being unemployed!).

I know everyone is probably like, f*** get it over with already Marc.

IN CONCLUSION

I guess I just felt it was inappropriate. If you really felt so strongly about giving him feedback, in my mind it wasn't justified doing so in the forums and you could have used a private message. Given proper context, I think it would be fine, but this wasn't one of those situations. And, obviously, I have trouble figuring out exactly what's bothering me about something and being concise about it.

I apologize to everyone, sorry =(

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to explain my quip. At the end of the last post, I said it brought my point back to, "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should." I actually was referring to myself and how I chose to write that comment about Americans, but I didn't really need to ^_-

[Arctic Phoenix]

I see your points.

I think for me my comments transcend Zed himself, and kind of address a larger audience. For instance, if I was new to forums, to Utopia, and to Rping in general, I would lurk for months (which I initially did, back in '01, '02ish). I would tear through existing threads, existing conversations, and existing critique to try and not embarrass myself on my first post (which I undoubtedly did anyway). And like I said earlier, back then it was easier to lose yourself in obscurity. Topping threads was there for a reason, to keep great stories from being forgotten beneath the mound of ever changing RPing. If I was new at this moment, this thread might inspire me to at the very least re-read my posts.

But then again it's not like new RPers who might need such warning will read through this thread anyway.

To clarify, my selfish comment more of deals with the idea of guarding a thread from poor posts. Every story I ever ran or entered had someone posting wildly and awkwardly. Most people bashfully ignored their IC posts and hoped they would get bored and remove themselves. Much of the time that just didn't happen, and awkwardness was endured. Those who matured now seem proactive at dealing with the issue, opposed to sweeping it under the rug.

I applaud you, Geco, for seizing the day and tackling the uneasy awkwardness. I think after a few people posted, I offered my two cents, and have gotten what I initially intended: a discussion addressing the issue. I understand your perspective, not wanting to callously stomp on another human, who was merely trying. I agree with you, and am sorry Zed became a centerpiece for this. That aside, if we look at the broader picture I think there are lessons to be learned.

You are correct in that public critique has become the norm in many aspects of my life. When you think about it, it applies to so much more than defending a drawing - whether it's debate, politics (or anything controversial), business, and your perspective, it comes down to backing up your work and your words with fact and/or logical argument. I'll hearken back to my own background with an example: Student A defends her work with the subjective statement "because I like it that way." Even in a creative field wrought with opinion this argument fails completely. We need more than the ambiguous harmony buried within her mind. But I digress..

I took insult to the very idea you brought up the bat%&*# crazy Americans ranting at a public forum. I felt like if that wasn't a comparison it simply shouldn't have been brought up. They do not represent even the average American - much less anyone with a semblance critical thinking. My tag says I hail from Alaska, but don't let that confuse you: Sarah Palin is an insane hypocrite that will never garnish my vote.

IN CONCLUSION

I don't feel <my> comments were inappropriate. I'm happy this elicited such a discussion; I feel like I know Geco a little better :)

[Arctic Phoenix]

Btw, Geco - you have no idea how relieved I was when you actually began discussing the issues. I was very afraid you'd take personal offense to my objections, and that was in no way any intent.

We rock at rational discourse.