alliances, FW's, raze kills and other stuff

[Pillz]

Yes, obviously you can compare raze killing to cheating.

[VT2]

You say you're having fun razing people to death. You say we're not 'skilled' enough to rebuild after we're razed to death, and lose several months of hard work. You say we're incapable of understanding the 'true' way the game's meant to be played, which is with raze in war.

All those go against what ordinary people consider 'fun,' and makes you into a tourneyfag. You're simply not going to let the game dictate the rules, and won't give up until you can dictate the rules for the game - the fun and entertainment of the majority be damned.

You want raze, because it's 'the one true way.' You want final destination, no items, Fox only, two stocks, or a five minute timer.

After reading this, you'll commence with the same old, tired, and silly nonsense.
"You're not skilled enough for this level of play." "You're too n00b to understand the greatness." "I'm better than you."

I don't want to play Razetopia. I don't want to play Super smash Foxbrothers - Final destination. It's really simple, but you're never going to accept this, and are forever doomed to fall back on 'well, you're not on my level, and you're totally incapable of grasping the full level of my skills.'

If you had an ounce of your claimed leet skills, you should be perfectly capable of winning over me without raze, and with a random character, items active, stock match, on a random stage. That's real skill - playing netdecks and 'I win'-buttons is not skill.

[Syele]

I am talking to Syele of ZEN and VT2 of ghettoland... I don't see your point.

And I really don't see why I must provide arguments to counter their cryings about raze being evil. "boo hoo, i got raze killed, i lost my science". My kingdom had 14-15 provs killed in 5 days a couple ages ago, we've had plenty of provinces raze killed in war before it was initially removed aswell.

We arent crying, are we? So why should twiddle dee and twiddle dumbass start crying? if they are getting provinces killed and dont like it, they can always withdraw from their war =) theyve obviously lost at that point. they are just crying because they can not play the game.

Where did I cry that raze is evil? I said weaken it a little not take it out. The wars I was in this age that were raze fest we won one and lost one. BOTH wars the winning KD had less acres than they started with. both wars have several people raze killed on both sides of the war.. even the winners.

I do not complain if my Provs get killed I teach them to fight back, and to not whine about it. But this is a suggestion board and I suggested weakening raze a bit. Why that makes me some parrot of VT2 saying to remove it that its bad and makes wars hard to get is beyond me since I disagree with all those points. Raze is not bad, its a perfectly good attack that is slightly overpowered atm. It does not make war more rare. I have very little trouble getting wars and I war on a schedule.

After a certain amount of hits, raze destroys only 15 acres. If you are telling me it is "too easily to pk provinces" with 15 acre hits, you're either warring completely inept opponents or are completely inept yourself. It is certainly not HARD to kill a province, but unless the majority of your kingdom can multi-tap them during the war, the chained province won't get raze killed. And if they ARE mutli-tapable, why shouldn't they be killed?

Its not that hard to make a Prov multitappable if you have any teamwork at all. By the time a prov is ready to be razed in a plan to kill them most of my KD if not all can quad tap them, 60 acres from each prov can take them down fast. Especially in "ghettos" where the average player is less than 1k before the war even started.

[VT2]

It's not that simple, I'm afraid.
Even a weakened raze would still be the end-all attack, because it completely ignores the usual problems of having to draft excess units, lessening your TPA and WPA, needing to build up your land, and screwing over your build.

He's saying you're a parrot, because he's a tourneyfag. Anyone who doesn't agree with them's not 'skilled' enough to understand the awesome truth.

[Mirage]

Syele: +1 .

And about raze making wars "work". My kd fought 3 wars this age.
1st one: 11 RL days. It ended when they were 64% our size. It was a "raze fest" but lasted way so long because they were stuborn.
2nd one: 84 hours. Mostly Trad Marches, and some massacres from us at the end. The guys surrended because we outnumbered them in attack momentum.
3rd one: A "raze fest" that lasted for ... 16 days... It ended when they were 83 % our size and strength.

In a nutshell. The two raze wars lasted the longest...

Before somebody comes up with we fighting noobs. Those three oponent kd's end the age with a 4-3 or 3-2 warbalance ;)

[Champion Havoc]

Hmmm personally I'm fine with raze as it is. Weaken raze by 2/3 will be nearly as good as eliminating it. (Since it will not be worth anything to raze)

Another idea would be to bring back raze buildings instead of land.That would let you keep your acres and at the same time there would be people using it rather than "eliminating" it.

[Syele]

I hated raze buildings instead of land because it was too weak. Maybe 2/3 is too much. but the point is that raze should be equal to or less useful than Trad. IF its the most powerful way to war, then war will have no variety = boring.

There should never be only one good way to do anything in Utopia. That is what balance is about. We need raze to be allowed and PK in war to be possible. But we also need it not to make other options too weak in comparison to be bothered with.

[VT2]

"There should never be only one good way to do anything in Utopia." That's why being able to raze acres in war is bad, because it's a gamebreaker - like Akuma in Street fighter 2.

We don't 'need' the ability to kill people. Isn't it enough to make it so they can't damage you at all, yet won't have to spend half the age catching up to their buddies?

[Champion Havoc]

The reason why raze is more powerful is because it gives the person who does the raze no incoming acres.

Scenario 1:
Person does Trad gains 50 acres +50
Person who gets hit loses 50 acres -50
(Lets not take pool gains into consideration)
The difference between the 2 provinces will be 100 acres.

Scenario 2:
Person who does raze gets no incoming acres,but razed 80 acres off the opponent. +0
Person who gets razed loses 80 acres -80
Difference = 80 acres

That is not "too strong" imo. :)

[Syele]

"There should never be only one good way to do anything in Utopia." That's why being able to raze acres in war is bad, because it's a gamebreaker - like Akuma in Street fighter 2.

We don't 'need' the ability to kill people. Isn't it enough to make it so they can't damage you at all, yet won't have to spend half the age catching up to their buddies?

Its not a game breaker. Look at the comments about reducing it by 2/3. Champ says it makes it useless, though you could still kill people. You say it will still destroy the game. You both cant be right. Its not useless if you can still take 15-30 with it and kill them. Its not a game breaker to lose 15-30 acres. If I had to double the time it took to raze kill a prov, Id prob rarely do it.

and if it takes literally half the age to catch up to buddies then they aren't getting enough help from their buddies. Utopia was always meant to be a team game, help out your poor buddies. VT2 you lead a KD, teach them to rebuild better.

[Mirage]

The main problem is that while Trad, Massacre and other attacks are NW- related, raze isn't.
A 300 K NW prov Quadripling a 80 k NW prov razes 10% of the acres away at every hit.

I saw a "brave" 240 K oponent T/M's triple-tapping a 28 k lad of mine and destroying 25% of his remaining acres. Fun you say? Nope, just silly imho...

[VT2]

If I got razed to a reset a month into the game, I'd have a lot of science that needed to be rebuilt, in a very short amount of time, and a lot of raw WPA that would need to be fixed.

Those things are NOT something you can 'get more skilled at' doing, because they both take a long, long time - especially now that learns are weaker.

Back when you invested in science, this was less of a concern, and you could fit more wars in each age.
That's no longer an otion.

'Teach them better!' is not an option. If you want good science, you have to invest lots of time into it, and there's very little you can do to change this.

And yeah, that's rather silly, Mirage, but according to people like Catwalk and Pillz, it's extremely good, fun, and balanced that their fatties can 4x anyone at least twice a day, no matter who they are, for massive damage.

[Syele]

If I want to invest lots of time in Sci then Im not gonna war every week. IF I wanna war every week Im not gonna be sitting around pumping Sci much.

VT2 where in the game rules does it say that VT2 has to have good Science AND lots of wars or else the game is broken? You cant pick a strat you like and demand the game change to make it work for you. you instead should be looking at what the game has provided and make your strat work with it. The ones who do that the best will be the best at what they want to do. If you wanna be the warring KD with the most sciences good luck to you but dont complain the game is broken cause of it. The other warring KDs have the same science disadvantages as you do, we all play the same server.

I suggested weakening raze cause atm it allows PKing to happen too easily. PKing itself is not bad, just having it too easy to do is bad. How its gone about to make it harder is not my intent to demonstrate. Maybe just making it more NW based or maybe leaving it the same but dropping the min out of it. Some numbers would have to be looked at to see what would be best to make it balanced with other attack types. I dont have time to figure all that atm.

[MorbidAngel]

@ Realest:


What you mean? Wars in those 41 ages before didn't work?

I started playing in age 34 and razes were destroying acres. Then in some a36-38 they changed it to destroy land, and now it's back to old. From what ppl told me razes were always destroying acres except in those few ages...

[VT2]

Raze wasn't always available in war to begin with, and has seen the most changes out of all attacks in the game - except missionary, which started out weak, got better, ended up completely outclassed by massacre, then removed completely.

If you don't have science, you're going to be at a disadvantage. It's like not running elites.
If you have more science than your opponent, you have an advantage. It's an eternal arms race.

I don't know anyone who thinks it's fun to build a province for a month or more, then seeing it all vanish in less than a day.