What hurts the most!

[raviy]

1. So earlier I quoted you saying that (a) The military is fascist. (b) There is no chain of command in fascism.
You have not provided anything to reconcile those two points, for as far as I can see, there is a chain of command in the military, and you have thus stated something that is contradictory.

2. Your label of pseudo-democracy, if I understand from the definition of "pseudo", being false, has little merit insofar as the mere title suggests an appearance of democracy without it actually being democratic. My understanding is that your "proposed" system is a subset of fascism. In fact, the distinctions you're drawing between fascism and dictatorship is inherently flawed. Go back to political theory 101. Fascism is an authoritarian hierarchical government. Dictatorship is a government where there is a single person with ultimate authority. These two are not mutually exclusive, and from what I can see, you are making inferences based on flawed premises.

3. No, the platoon would not simply reject the said leader. You're simplifying a complex theory of revolution. I suggest you read some Marx and Durkheim.

4. You failed to understand what I meant about following the leadership's directions being the only way. Even if the individual has a better plan than leadership. Not having the entire kingdom executing the leadership's plan and having stray provinces run the plans of that individual severely diminishes the effectiveness of both. If province A is a much better chain target than province B, and leadership orders the kingdom to chain province B, it is grossly unhelpful for myself and/or several other kingdom mates to chain province A instead.

You, in supporting Grime, are supporting the idea that those in the armed forces need not obey their COs due to the nature of the hierarchical structure. That I have a problem with. Soldiers knew, or should have known, what they were signing up for, and to subvert the authority to which they pledged obedience, is an inexcusable moral wrong.

[Hallo]

I've been at this too long... so lets cut to the chase.

1. I said that the military had a "controlled' facisim... I then further edified you by telling you that the hierarchy was imposed, rather than inherent.
It's there if you read it.


2.
Fascism HAS NO Hierarchy!
Seriously, where do these kids come up with this?

Read up on what you're arguing from veritable sources (Wikipedia is not a veritable source).
Fascism is very very different from a dictatorship... just as a dictatorship is very very different from a monarchy, and just as a monarchy is very very different from a democracy. You're blatantly ignoring everything about them with the exception of "Has a central leader... he rules".

So, READ what I wrote, or READ A BOOK! I cannot educate those who will not help themselves.


And a Pseudo-Democracy is VERY different from BOTH a dictatorship and a Fascist Regime! You simply don't understand WHY... and the reason, I guess, is because you know absolutely nothing about psychology. If you can't understand my argument's components, then I certainly can't bring you to enlightenment!



3.
So you're saying that Marx was a "revolutionist" and that what he wrote about was... "revolution". Oh the hilarity! You could easily argue you're right, but "revolutionist" is just a broad term that heck, even SOCRATES was a revolutionist, he wanted to induce mass change! Bill Gates! Revolutionist. Isaac Newton! Galleo! Einstien! Name one person who HASN'T inspired change.


Nope, this is no revolution, this is MUTINY! Revolution invokes change, where as mutiny simply invokes a change in leadership.

And would it happen as I said? Given the soldiers were properly conditioned, I can guarantee it.
It's all there under "fascism"... and "conditioning" and even "puppet leaders"... if you'd read it.


4.
And you had intentionally set a situation to demonstrate that the individual is the weak point.
I know exactly what you mean. You don't know what I mean.

And, in fact... if you, as the individual, managed to get everyone to chain B instead of A... you would have demonstrated you uberness and won the game!



5.
I am supporting that Grime acted as an individual... he acted the way anyone would have acted
You don't support him because you're a fascist. You hate individualism and you want people to act as one.

Nothing you can ever say will hold more weight than what I just said.

[raviy]

1 & 2. Again, you stated that fascism has no hierarchy. You stated that the military has a controlled fascism. I'm assuming that this "controlled fascism" of which you speak is a subset of fascism. It is thus possible for fascism to have a hierarchy. Hey look, you fail. Hmm. By your definition, Nazi Germany, Italy under Mussolini, were not fascist, since there was a hierarchical system as military service was required and social classes were set by those means. I think the vast majority of historians would disagree with you. Also, you're suggesting that fascism and dictatorship are mutually exclusive, which suggests that a fascist dictatorship does not exist. Maybe you need to get a clue.

3. Marx wrote about a great many things. One of which was the means by which governmental structure can be changed. Stop being dense.

4. I'm assuming the leadership themselves wouldn't listen to the individual, so clearly there would necessarily be a lack of unity in that situation... which was my point.

5. Anyone would have acted the way Grime acted? As clearly he is not indicative of the population of Utopia, as top kingdoms don't have people defecting every other day, and in fact it is a rarity, I don't see how you can make that assertion. You still have not dealt with "You, in supporting Grime, are supporting the idea that those in the armed forces need not obey their COs due to the nature of the hierarchical structure. That I have a problem with. Soldiers knew, or should have known, what they were signing up for, and to subvert the authority to which they pledged obedience, is an inexcusable moral wrong."

[WolfDGrey]

raviy, you're arguing with somebody who's philosophy is that the internet makes no money... LOL.

After you read that blurb, you will understand that he lives in a completely diferent world than ours. So no wonder he has that mentality.

[DjTeddySpin]

To try and clean up this big mess I've made... let me explain.
I feel the way Grime acted was perfectly normal... and thats why I support him.

All of this explanation of what fascism is, how it works... the point is simply to get you all to understand something that many keep indicating that they do not. My alternative of a "pseudo-democracy", while it does not have many of the added benefits of fascism, does allow people to be easily admitted into a KD... while fascism inherently resists their admittance from both the KD and the individual admitted.

And those are truths! I can keep explaining on and on, exposing the flaws in your logic or explaining your misconceptions... and you STILL WON'T GET IT.


People will persist in the idea that what Grime did is unacceptable BECAUSE THEY'RE CONDITIONED TO! And I can issue argument against argument compounding upon how it is exactly what will happen, yet they will continue to refute it because, they're conditioned to!

*err, make a note. This doesn't mean what he did wasn't bad... but the severity of the backlash indicates a very high level of intolerance.*

It's a really awesome situation. My extensive repertoire against your simple conditioning... which will win out... well, we both know that one.



But, if you want me to say "fascism is okay, because people... secretly... want to be fascists" then you will not get it. I know that the efficiency of a fascist society cannot be competed with, but I also know of the people that it hurts, and how unstable it actually is. I know that my proposed pseudo-democracy has inherent flaws... and I know that said pseudo-democracy is just as likely to revert back to fascism. There's not much you can actually do.

But, oh well... this has been fun!

Hi,

i didn't say anything about grime being right or wrong o.o
I was merely enforcing on the fact that fascism is practised, and its shown an efficiency greater than democracy or any other ideology people have comed up with. I get where you're coming from, but I seen both side.

To the top tiered KDs its like running a Grand Taxi company. You rent out Porsche Taxis. For the Drivers its never really their car, but the company's.

[geln0r]

Contracts are inherently undemocratic. They constrain the actions of an individual for the benefits of another. In fact, it seems odd that you would choose that, of all things, to pose an argument against this being fascism. If I were to sign a contract that said I hence forth have no rights, would surrender my individualism, and thus forth adopt an ideology that is inherently fascist... have I democratically become a fascist? Is the contract even reasonable? Are your implications that the power of a contract is greater than the power of an individual? And that if an individual were to enter a contract that is potentially harmful to him and others, that said contract should be abided by, regardless of consequences?
There are laws against such contracts... thereby making them unenforceable and void.

I recommend you read The Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes, and/or the Treatises on Statecraft by John Locke. I can also recommend further reading on the topic, if you want, but the point here is that you simply dont know what you are talking about.

Does the church go door to door and ask "Are you a Member" and if you are not, pull out a shotgun and blast your head off? It seems, yet again, you completely miscomprehend the actions of fascists to suit your argument. The KD did force grime to adopt their ideology, but the church currently does not

your comparison is flawed. IF you are a member of a church, then the church WILL force you to conform to their ideology, per definition. If you disagree, then by all means leave the church, but that doesnt give you the right to burn a cathedral before you go. Perhaps an even better example, if you decide to leave the catholic church, you do NOT get the church tax you previously paid refunded, in other words you do NOT get the resources/effort back which you put in.

Similarly, a sports team would never injure the members that "failed to score". nor would it physically punish those that were issued a penalty... a sports team will protect its weakest members. Take American Football, you have all those big meaty guys... and then that little scrawny guy that they could snap like a twig. It makes no sense that those big guys would protect the little one, but they do... they do because he can perform a function they can't, even though their function may be seen as inherently superior to his function. Nor does a business eradicate itself of weaker members. If you fail to come to work on time, does said business place a bomb in your car the very next day? No, it does not.

what the **** are you smoking. Youre just providing examples why Grace should have kicked the guy out. A sports team will kick out players that fail to score. Football defense provides protection to someone who performs a task that is valuable to the team as a whole - which grimy obviously did not. A business fires weak members - just as grace "fired" grimy.

And your comment about the international red cross? Please. The red cross cares very much what happens to it's members, laymen... like yourself... may see it as a great danger, but the reality is the danger has already passed, or is far enough away to allow safe travel.

Do you walk through life with both eyes shut? Try reading a newspaper for a change.

Note also that it is not the red cross that decides what its members do, but the members themselves. If they say "no, I do not want to" they don't have to... the red cross acts in the best interest of it's members, and aims to protect them. But the red cross, under no circumstances, is going to be seen throwing people out of a plane to "rescue" the people 10 feet away from a lava flow (note that said people would already be dead). And if one person lands in said flow, they're not going to say "oh well, hey, your turn now".

wat? what you are saying makes no sense.

instead, pull out a history book, and read.

careful when pretending you know what youre talking about. PM me here on the forums or reply in this thread, and I'll be glad to prove to you in historical detail why youre wrong.

That is all.

[Sashdev]

just wanted to say hello sashdev!

long time no see ;)

Heyya Bijo. How are ya? Havent seen you around lately :P

[Nuriho]

just as grace "fired" grimy.[

hey just because it's important to the thread to notice: Grime wasn't fired in anyway from us. We simply asked him once why he was consistently late for waves. No firing involved with our actions. I don't want some troll to ignore everything else you said, as it's valid, solely because you miss semantics that Grime left on his own accord because he thought he knew where a conversation was going + PMS.

[octobrev]

defecting is the latest thing! everybody *\:D/*

[Grime]

Lol i was a little ****bag

[luke3]

Any business or any sports team. You really imagine your favoured football team will keep the non productive player in the field, without changing him?

Can I just point out that the sports team analogy was funny.... in the context I imagined switching a players brain out for a different one ;p

[Palem]

Bang bang