Lower kd sizes

[Coke]

And leaders leave because they burn out trying to run a 25 player kd when there's such a small player base.

I'm sorry to say, good leadership KD don't have too much of a hard time filling out KDs. Players respond to the right type of leadership and hence there is less player cycling thus no need to go recruit constantly. If your KD is rotating players like crazy, then you should look to fix your own KD leadership issues. This isn't to say your Monarch is doing badly, but maybe he/she isn't getting enough support or what not. Leadership isn't just the monarch, there are a lot of other people that need to competently step up as well.

The difference is that the 20 player kd's can now hit more than those 18-22 kd's they were limited to before. Having less players with more nw is usually a disadvantage, and activity would matter even more in those situations, since having 25 active attackers is better than having 20.

I'm saying SKD's will STILL be out of range as well as Ghetto's. You'll still end up hitting the same people your hitting now except with possibly even numbers, but then your NW/prov will also be equal assuming you look for roughly equal NW KDs. The only way that you would find more KDs to hit is if the people who were kicked out of their KDs were willing to go to lesser leadership KDs to fill them up or to find new leadership and form new KDs. But if they left their previous KDs because they were unhappy with the play level or leadership, what are the chances they would stick around if they are now kicked out? and all the other KDs that suit their style are already full since they would also have to kick people to make 20.

Yes, I'm banking on people being able to compete better with smaller kd's. Everybody isn't connected enough to snatch up good players. That doesn't mean they don't know how to run a decent kd. There are plenty of kd's out there with a good solid 10-15 players that will be much closer to competing if kd size is lowered.

KDs rotate people because their players are unhappy with some aspect of the KD, if the leadership was strong enough they would not have such a hard time finding people since their would be less player rotation.

The SKDs will have to fight a lot more to get out of range in the first place.

That may be true, but I still doubt they wouldn't OOP with the better land whoring strat than pure warring KDs, thus outgrowing everybody very fast anyways. This won't change just because you now have equal KD sizes. SKDs still grew out of size fairly fast even during the prime days of Utopia when there were a ton of 25 player KDs.

If I want more targets I should get bigger or smaller? Really? I never thought it was all that simple, thank you!

I apologize that I worded this badly, I meant if you wanted DIFFERENT targets, you should grow bigger or become smaller. A lot of people here are arguing that the game is boring because they've already fought all the people around their size every age over and over.

[comport9]

All talk about "leaders" and "leadership" is simply a Red Herring argument. No one here knows how many good leaders there are in the game, nor where they are, and certainly can't give any concrete evidence (You know, FACTS) as to what their impact on the game is. It's nothing but a weak attempt to muddy the waters of the issue.

Keep it simple people;

Does competition increase with more KD's being of equal size?
Does increased competition result is a more enjoyable game?
Does a more enjoyable game result in fewer players leaving the game?

These questions need to be agreed upon before any meaningful discussion can occur with regards to lowering KD sizes. If we can't agree on these three questions to start, talking about the benefits of lowering KD sizes will prove fruitless.

Once we agree on these, then we can further break down arguments for and against lowering KD sizes based on these principals.

For the record, I say "yes" to all three.

[lichemaster]

Funny comport9 you demand facts from everyone while your opinion is supposed to be enough for everyone. Leadership is obviously important to many players and the lack of leaders is quite obvious by the FACT that you haven't seen a new SK appear in ages.

Does competition increase with more KD's being of equal size?

Probably not. Networth and explore pool limits already balances stuff, a 25 player kingdom can't explore more than a 20 player one nor can it fight with it if it's out of networth range.

* here I assume size means number of players.

Does increased competition result is a more enjoyable game?

Sure. That happens when there are more players playing the game, not when you decide to ruin teams of players just because you're jealous and no one wants to be on your team.

Does a more enjoyable game result in fewer players leaving the game?

No argument here, I just don't see how a more enjoyable game comes from this stupid reduction. Probably we will have a less enjoyable game since VIPs(very important players) will be the ones leaving (everyone in a 25 player kingdom is definitely a VIP). Let's kick the people that pay for the servers with their sitting credits out of the game, that's a great idea...

[TheRock]

Does competition increase with more KD's being of equal size?
Does increased competition result is a more enjoyable game?
Does a more enjoyable game result in fewer players leaving the game?

No, increasing number of bad kds just makes more kds for good kds to farm out. Competition increases with stronger kingdoms
Yes
Yes

The goal should be to have a greater number of players in good kds. There are two ways to do this - make more good kds or get more players into existing good kds. Since the number of good kds has decreased with each passing age, it should be clear that you aren't going to magically make more good kds. Concordantly, we will all agree that getting more players into existing good kingdoms is the only way to get a greater number of players playing in good kds.

[Coke]

Does competition increase with more KD's being of equal size?

No. I have already explained this. SKDs will always pull away because they have better OOP strats tailored to grow fast and out of NW range of KDs built to war. Ghetto's will still be too small because their ghettos. You will still be competing against the same group of people as you are now (those around your KD NW range), whether your currently a SKD, mid-tier or ghetto (there might be a slight shuffle here or there, but mostly will be the same), UNLESS new KDs emerge, which then you go into arguments such as leadership and such.

As I said before your numbers are greatly misleading as to the impact it will have on the game (which is the inferred intention of posting said numbers), but you use them as if they were facts.

[Bishop]

Competition increases with more kingdoms of equal talent, not size. Your 20 player ghetto is still a ghetto, expect now it will be farmed slightly longer before the skds outgrow it. Then, when people leave it during the course of the age to go to better kds, it will start the next age with 15 players. Then someone will make a post about kd sizes not being reduced enough.

[Luc]

I'm sorry to say, good leadership KD don't have too much of a hard time filling out KDs. Players respond to the right type of leadership and hence there is less player cycling thus no need to go recruit constantly. If your KD is rotating players like crazy, then you should look to fix your own KD leadership issues. This isn't to say your Monarch is doing badly, but maybe he/she isn't getting enough support or what not. Leadership isn't just the monarch, there are a lot of other people that need to competently step up as well.

Please stop telling me what reality is like. I live there too. Your opinions of how things are don't match what I've been experiencing. How well you manage to recruit depends on how well connected you are and your kd's background. If you can show that your kd has been successful before, you are more likely to be able to recruit good players. Newly started kd's, or kd's that attempt to get better don't have any advantages there, and rarely have the contacts to pick up players leaving other kd's. I.e. them being worse at recruiting doesn't follow from their lack of leadership abilities.

As for players leaving, my experience is that the most common reason for leaving is real life interference, not bad leadership. Many also leave because they're simply bored of the game. That's players that could easily get a spot in a really good kd if they wanted, but they don't even care to try, because it's the game itself they're tired of. And that's not hard to understand seeing as how the game really is boring. It's all rinse and repeat. Ghettoes are ghettoes, the mid kd's are stuck where they are, and the top grows away because there's no competition.

I'm saying SKD's will STILL be out of range as well as Ghetto's. You'll still end up hitting the same people your hitting now except with possibly even numbers, but then your NW/prov will also be equal assuming you look for roughly equal NW KDs. The only way that you would find more KDs to hit is if the people who were kicked out of their KDs were willing to go to lesser leadership KDs to fill them up or to find new leadership and form new KDs. But if they left their previous KDs because they were unhappy with the play level or leadership, what are the chances they would stick around if they are now kicked out? and all the other KDs that suit their style are already full since they would also have to kick people to make 20.

And I'm saying that you're wrong, because there will be more kd's competing with the SKDs. The SKDs of today are weaksauce compared to what they were a few years ago. Most of the talent has left the game. There are only a handful of really good kd's left, and sure, they would probably be able to grow away as usual. The difference would be that the rest of the top 25 would not have it nearly as easy anymore, because there would be lots more kd's that could compete now that they don't have the player disadvantage anymore. There's no doubt in my mind that there are plenty of warring kd's with around 20 players that would beat the current top 25 kd's in war if they had the same amount of players. And if they can, they will.

KDs rotate people because their players are unhappy with some aspect of the KD, if the leadership was strong enough they would not have such a hard time finding people since their would be less player rotation.

Wrong. People leave for lots of reasons, and most of them do not depend on leadership.

That may be true, but I still doubt they wouldn't OOP with the better land whoring strat than pure warring KDs, thus outgrowing everybody very fast anyways. This won't change just because you now have equal KD sizes. SKDs still grew out of size fairly fast even during the prime days of Utopia when there were a ton of 25 player KDs.

SKDs rarely want to war oop unless they have an obvious farm target. They're not so super awesome that they grow away before a brave slightly smaller kd can hit them if they'd like. I think you overestimate the abilities of most top kd's, and underestimate the ability of the warring kd's on the bottom half of the top 50. Strategies would change, things wouldn't just be the same. If a smaller kd now is full instead of missing 5 players, why would they not try to do something new?

I apologize that I worded this badly, I meant if you wanted DIFFERENT targets, you should grow bigger or become smaller. A lot of people here are arguing that the game is boring because they've already fought all the people around their size every age over and over.

And the problem is that they can't just grow bigger if they want to. As soon as they try, they run into full kd's that rape them for land. Stimulate competition or nothing will ever happen.

and you think that is a good thing? , i bet your one of the players that want paradice to take acers from the pool to...

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the boring game that makes sure things are the same over and over each age. I actually want to at least attempt to save the game. By making more kd's competitive, there will be more action in the game. The lack of action is what makes people leave.

Also, the only argument I ever saw from your crowd is that all that will happen is that SKDs will rape the smaller kd's more. Thing is, I didn't see anyone complain that that actually happened. But sure, I understand that you want to keep your dice so you never have to do any work after 1 week oop. NAP everyone and just dice away. So much fun? I really don't care about the people who only want changes that makes life easier for themselves.

[lichemaster]

And I'm saying that you're wrong, because there will be more kd's competing with the SKDs. The SKDs of today are weaksauce compared to what they were a few years ago. Most of the talent has left the game. There are only a handful of really good kd's left, and sure, they would probably be able to grow away as usual. The difference would be that the rest of the top 25 would not have it nearly as easy anymore, because there would be lots more kd's that could compete now that they don't have the player disadvantage anymore. There's no doubt in my mind that there are plenty of warring kd's with around 20 players that would beat the current top 25 kd's in war if they had the same amount of players. And if they can, they will.
(...)
Also, the only argument I ever saw from your crowd is that all that will happen is that SKDs will rape the smaller kd's more. Thing is, I didn't see anyone complain that that actually happened.

Top 25 have it easy? Don't you see the incongruity in your reasoning? Top25 are just about the only ones with targets in range of the people above them. They don't have it easy at all. You clearly do not understand what happens at the top... Maybe you don't see anyone complaining because the Top 25 is not made of a bunch of whiners.

I think the next thing you should promote is that people are only allowed to login 3 times a day because the evil super kingdoms have people that login almost every tick and that isn't fair. There would be more "competition" and "fun" if people were only allowed to login 3 times a day. In fact I might make the thread myself because it will really help competition.

[Aos]

Top 25 have it easy? Don't you see the incongruity in your reasoning? Top25 are just about the only ones with targets in range of the people above them. They don't have it easy at all. You clearly do not understand what happens at the top... Maybe you don't see anyone complaining because the Top 25 is not made of a bunch of whiners.

I think the next thing you should promote is that people are only allowed to login 3 times a day because the evil super kingdoms have people that login almost every tick and that isn't fair. There would be more "competition" and "fun" if people were only allowed to login 3 times a day. In fact I might make the thread myself because it will really help competition.

That's not a bad idea , you know how perfect you got to login to use those 3 daily logins in a good way? , that is adding something to the game.

[Luc]

Top 25 have it easy? Don't you see the incongruity in your reasoning? Top25 are just about the only ones with targets in range of the people above them. They don't have it easy at all. You clearly do not understand what happens at the top... Maybe you don't see anyone complaining because the Top 25 is not made of a bunch of whiners.

I'm right there, and I don't understand what's happening there? Whatever dude. Most kd's in the top are allied to at least half the other kd's up there, and the rest rarely dare to hit the others for fear of retal wars.

I wasn't talking of the top kd's complaining, I was talking about the argument FROM the top kd's that for example paradise taking from the explore pool would mean worse kd's would get raped more. I didn't see any ****storm of people complaining that the top kd's were raping them more than usual, and if they were, obviously people didn't think it was too bad.

I think the next thing you should promote is that people are only allowed to login 3 times a day because the evil super kingdoms have people that login almost every tick and that isn't fair. There would be more "competition" and "fun" if people were only allowed to login 3 times a day. In fact I might make the thread myself because it will really help competition.

Appeal to ridicule with a ridiculous example. Try again.

I can do the same thing you did there:
Let's make all kd's have 100 players. It's great, because then the good leaders aren't as spread out as they were before, so everyone will be happy and no one will quit. That the kd's will have to intra to have anyone to hit is not a problem at all, because the only thing that matters is how many players we have in the whole game, not how big the kd's are. That most kd's will not get close to 100 players is not a problem either, because that's how the game is today, and it will always be that way regardless of what we do.

[Bishop]

if you cant make a point without swearing then dont bother posting.

[Aos]

if you cant make a point without swearing then dont bother posting.

should'nt that be a PM to? , kinda pointless troll post.

[comport9]

Well, I'm outta this discussion. If they naysayers refuse to agree that more KD's of equal size will increase competition... I don't see a point of continuing.

I will leave with this though, all who are arguing against this change haven't presented any viable alternative. We all know what the status quo is, and that's a slow death with less and less fun for those in the game. Until they can come up with real suggestions, beyond advertising and such that is NOT going to happen, they aren't adding anything to the discussion.

cya.

[Luc]

Well, I'm outta this discussion. If they naysayers refuse to agree that more KD's of equal size will increase competition... I don't see a point of continuing.

I will leave with this though, all who are arguing against this change haven't presented any viable alternative. We all know what the status quo is, and that's a slow death with less and less fun for those in the game. Until they can come up with real suggestions, beyond advertising and such that is NOT going to happen, they aren't adding anything to the discussion.

cya.

Indeed, we're on repeat in here. No real point continuing. I doubt anything will happen anyway.

[Bishop]

should'nt that be a PM to? , kinda pointless troll post.

No, it serves as a warning to others too. If you want to swear or cause trouble i will assist you in leaving.