An honest discussion about the use of Homes

[ittlecas]

Show the calculations behind that one!!
I ran 65% draft last age, only 2% BE Sci, no pop sci (started very near EOA) and I had a BE of upper 70's with no homes! I'm not sure where you got that BE, but it's completely off!
Reminder: You only need to fill like 2/3 of the jobs to have 100% BE. I'm not sure the exact percent, and I'm too lazy to look it up

Your right it is completly off. I forgot the last step. And yea, the wiki says 2/3 of jobs need to be filled. For the calc I just did a prov with 100 acres for simplicity. The calc is this: 100 acres=2500 pezzies and 2500 jobs of which 67% or 1675 jobs must be filled. 60% draft= 1500 military and 1000 pezzies. 1000pezzies/1675 jobs = 60% jobs performed. But then BE needs the additional .5*(1+jobs performed) = 80% BE Sorry about that one. Although the point still stands that if kayani wants the same military power, you'll need 50% TGs and 50% forts and still only get +30% Off/Def at 80% BE.

Also if gojete wants a big army and doesnt care about income, why dont you just draft your 95% of your pezzies with ANY build strat? Its almost the same anyways.

[ittlecas]

I'm just now reworking my calcs to do NW comparisons and its not been easy to do apples to apples comparisons. But the end result that I've found was that humans will get a small bonus on the DPNW (around a 5% bonus @ 35% homes although too much, like 50% homes, shows almost the same as 0% homes) while I'm getting negative results if a dwarf or gnome uses any homes at all. I wont show the gnome or dwarf as they arnt gettin any benifit from homes but I'll show my numbers for humans so that it can be reviewed by my esteemed colleagues :)

Human A- 1000 acres, 33% homes, 12% banks, 1.8% forts, 1.8% rax and 59.4% draft =
~165k NW, 38k income, 100% BE, ~118k off+def. and 51.4% acres remaining to build on
Human B- 1000 acres, 0% homes, 37% banks, 0% forts, 0% rax and 67.8% draft =
~165k NW, 38k income, 74.2% BE, ~118k off+def. and 63% acres@74%BE (equivalent of 47% acres) remaining to build on

I didnt show all the equations here but you can look up the numbers yourself and double check me.

PS - as a side note, on the DPNW scale, I find that the BE has little relevance and may not be as important as I thought it was.

[Dragons Mate]

I've found was that humans will get a small bonus on the DPNW ... while I'm getting negative results if a dwarf or gnome uses any homes at all.

So basically, you just proved that Homes are completely useless, or did I read that completely wrong..?

[DHaran]

I can't decide if ittlecas is a troll yet. I'm finding this sudden surge if idiocy spawning from nicks created in January to be more than coincidental.

[vines]

I would post my SoT and that's the proof all these guys say they want but if when I do that they will just blow it off. I see a lot of guys with high homes starts now. More and more people are using my strategy and I am glad to see that. People need to change as the game changes unless they change how homes work, homes will be the best way to play. The most homes I have used was 70%. I like to keep around 50%. The reason is because after 84% military draft it becomes very hard to draft and cost a lot.

[ittlecas]

For most races, I'd say yes unless your doing it for the BR. Its only humans that will get a small benifit from a normal amount of homes.

[Kayani]

gojete / ( also vines? is gojete vines?) - irrespective of any of your calcs, you say you like to run high homes because you're bored with playing the game the normal way ... but, it also looks like you've been running high homes strats for many ages now. So, do us a favor - take your own advice, get bored with high homes, and come up with a new strat for us to ... erm ... discuss? :) I don't think we've talked about 100% dungeons enough yet. My personal favorite - 100% farms. I wanna see you put your minds to work coming up to a way to win with 100% farms ... now THAT would be something!

ittlecas - why are you siding with gojete and vines? But either way, yes, my 10-second example was quick and off the cuff and didn't include BE. Unfortunately, your solution is running 50% TGs / 50% forts to compensate for 80% BE and that's at the least wasteful. Angel is telling me the difference between 50% TGs and 40% TGs at 80% BE is 1.2% offense. No one would ever do that ... total waste of buildings. You can just use horses, or prisoners, or draft more, etc.

My point is that running 100% homes for the sheer sake of army strength can be matched or bested by other strategies that increase army strength in other ways. Beyond that, 100% homes cripples you in a dozen different ways and is totally unsustainable and I have no idea why you're even arguing about it. Any strat that doesn't include at least *some* farms, guilds, and towers is not going to be sustainable for 99% of the players.

And, instead of posting some new example to back up my statement, I'll just say that if you wanna disprove me, post your own math for everyone here to scrutinize over. I hold that, all other things being equal, there are sustainable build strategies that can produce more OPA/DPA than 100% homes.

Or throw in a single SoT - far as I can tell, people here have been asking for one of those for ages.

(Plus, I think your statement that only humans can benefit from a normal amount of homes is unfounded - why are humans different from the other races in these comparisons?)

[ittlecas]

I dont think you've read my posts as I'm not siding with vines or gojete and I am most certainly NOT recommending 100% homes for the same reasons you are.

And I was asking the same question as to what the major difference is between the races and I dont have an answer yet. With gnomes, I DO know why and its because gnomes have such low NW/elite and +1 off specs (which are only worth 4.8) which turns the whole DPNW thing on its head. However, I thought dwarves would be about the same as humans but when I changed the values in the spreadsheet for dwarves, I didnt get the same results. Possible because of their +20% BE? I was hoping somebody else had the answer and could tell me why.

Let me show what my excel 'prophet' (did anybody ever update that program or use it anymore?) kd shows with dwarves and see if anybody finds an error...

1000 acre dwarf with 30% bank and 71.8% draft (for brevity, assume dwarves military are all 7 mixed between off/def and worth 5.5 nw each):
160.7kNW, 18k ATMs, 91.20% BE, 26.6k income, 107k off/def. Only 63.6% effective acres remaining

1000 dwarf, 30% homes, 8.2% banks, 63.5% draft, 1.8% forts and TGs (sorry I was calling them rax as that was a mistake earilier)
160.7kNW, 17.4k ATMs, 112.90% BE, 26.6k income, 107 off/def. Only 52.8% eff acres remaining

And posters beware, any useful information, calculations, or research which may be of use to somebody should think twice about posting because DHaran, who has yet to add anything of value to this thread, is likely to consider you a troll.

[Bishop]

FYI everyone: calling someone a troll is trolling. Play nicely.

[gojete]

Having a normal strat is boring, my people have a record this age now of

Total Attacks Made 301
Total Wins 282

Attacks Suffered 70
Times Defeated 62

Spells Attempted 727
Successful Spells 531

Thievery Operations Attempted 2615
Successful Thievery Operations 2027

you show me your numbers and tell me how many kingdoms you have trashed and made defect their provinces or deletion even, we terrorize boy, your top coward kd strats do not work in the hood, keep having a normal build and a normal war plan, you will end up getting eaten by us!

Theres only one way to play in the ghetto and its all in.

Anyway i will try now to build the 100% homes province of 1000 acres.

I dont really want to do it but i will sacrifice myself for the sake of science.
I rather have 10% guilds 20% barracks 20% arms 20% hosps 5% farms 25% homes . I think i tried that one and it was ok.

I really wouldnt recommend any ghetto player to try the normal builds that rely on the self income because it means that you need time to train your armies , and getting ready to war and so on, and in the ghetto you know that people are never ready at the same time, so that leads to people getting hit from left to right.

So i recommend you to change into a weird build like mine which is :

30% barracks and 70% barren lands


Yes my people its true i will play 30% barracks and 70% barren lands,

This is how you play in the ghetto and win wars and destroy kingdoms like.

If you are in a 1, 2 million or 3 millions gc ghetto , this is how you do it.

[DHaran]

FYI everyone: calling someone a troll is trolling. Play nicely.

Calling someone a troll is trolling, but ACTUAL trolling is apparently allowed.

[Bishop]

Dharan, if I had to ban people who you deem to give bad advice the forums would just be you and spheric living out your bromance.

If you do not like a strategy then criticise it constructively.

[DHaran]

You know I have never had a problem with arguing bad advice, but this is a different matter. Trolling multis sitting here arguing with themselves over what's better, 70% Homes 30% Dungeons or 30% Barracks 70% Barren. Come on Bish.

[Bishop]

you know I can see IPs right?

[DHaran]

Yep. Doesn't change my opinion.