Science is fundamentally unbalanced and unbalancing.

[Ironballs]

The sci maxes I have saved are:

Age 27 (probably)
Income 35%
Tools 15%
Housing 13%
Food 100%
War 16.7%
Crime 100%
Channeling 100%

Age 15
Income 35%
Tools 50%
Housing 17.5%
Food 70%
War 10%
Crime 65%
Channeling 65%

[Zauper]

Thanks for that ibby, oddly, I just looked at past reports I had posted in UT, and the numbers were largely close to what I posted in my initial post. Though, I wasn't accounting for stacked human/lib bonuses.

[Ironballs]

I have some old excel sheets saved but it's sort of hard to tell what age they correspond to in some cases.

[Zauper]

FWIW, I also liked war science better when it was +OME/+ME instead of +gains.

[E_Boko]

What I meant was I'm not as serious as others since I'm not a sage but I'm no shlab. I did spend about 3 weeks throughout the age pumping.

[tak3shi]

Support this, current system rewards you not to war, hence boring. Unless you have a personality that when you make TM's you gain science too.

Then again only that personality will be playable. Well we need more ideas and solutions to rework science & honor.

[johnnydoe]

As you have pointed out, it's about choices. You can pump for a fight and go after the kd who is trying to sciwhore since they will, by your argument, have much less army. The real solution, imo, is to not give good kd's long cf's so they can pump in safety ...

That is not "fundamentally flawed" as you say. It IS about choices. KDs who "pump" sci go against the design of the game; drafting of sci is an idea that discourages "pumping" and when ppl do that they lose a lot of time. Other KDs move ahead in military and acreage. But, it is there choice...pump or attack.
Every province/KD that pumps sci does not necessarily come out on top 'cause they have +7% on pop or +20% on income. There are so many factors at work that to make that statement is illogical.

Also, and this might be a lilttle redundant, purchasing of sci will make pumping more effective. Even if you cap it, they pump again at new acreage. Fake wars, all around NAPs will be more prevalent thereby encouraging bottom raping.

[DHaran]

That is not "fundamentally flawed" as you say. It IS about choices. KDs who "pump" sci go against the design of the game; drafting of sci is an idea that discourages "pumping" and when ppl do that they lose a lot of time. Other KDs move ahead in military and acreage. But, it is there choice...pump or attack.
Every province/KD that pumps sci does not necessarily come out on top 'cause they have +7% on pop or +20% on income. There are so many factors at work that to make that statement is illogical.

Also, and this might be a lilttle redundant, purchasing of sci will make pumping more effective. Even if you cap it, they pump again at new acreage. Fake wars, all around NAPs will be more prevalent thereby encouraging bottom raping.

You're entire post just proved how little you know on the subject.

[Zauper]

That is not "fundamentally flawed" as you say. It IS about choices. KDs who "pump" sci go against the design of the game; drafting of sci is an idea that discourages "pumping" and when ppl do that they lose a lot of time. Other KDs move ahead in military and acreage. But, it is there choice...pump or attack.

I'm going to assume that this is addressed to me, even though the quote is completely different, because it's not a response to your quote.
1) Drafting of science doesn't discourage pumps; it makes them longer. (See my early posts in the thread)
2) You're establishing a false dichotomy
a) You assume that there's a tradeoff between military and science -- there isn't. It takes 24-48h to train up. It's not like military is uncapped the way that science is. FWIW, it takes me aprox 2-3 days to draft and train between 10 and 12 EPA, with a decent starting point (10+ mil/acre).. This would be made even easier by having pumped science....and allow me to have more military than you.
b) You can grow and pump science at the same time; running 100-150 DPA with the necessary CFs, combined with a generally low draft (high mods) and dice to keep pace with the top. It's really quite effective, and has been done successfully before.
c) There is only a choice if you don't care about being competitive.

Every province/KD that pumps sci does not necessarily come out on top 'cause they have +7% on pop or +20% on income. There are so many factors at work that to make that statement is illogical.

If you forgo an advantage that large, against an equally skilled kingdom, you will lose.

Can you win? Sure, if you're fighting idiots. In which case you can really be running whatever you want and still win.

Also, and this might be a lilttle redundant, purchasing of sci will make pumping more effective. Even if you cap it, they pump again at new acreage. Fake wars, all around NAPs will be more prevalent thereby encouraging bottom raping.

If it's capped, being able to buy science is irrelevant because it can't get past the cap. How would that make fake wars more prevalent (wouldn't be needed) or NAPs (would be pointless).

On the contrary, it would encourage conflict because you would no longer need 2 months of pumping to establish an advantage.

[DHaran]

I wasn't around when the cap was present Zaup; if you invested science beyond the cap would it just maintain that max level during growth, or is that just wasted gc? Or did it not even allow you to invest over the cap?

[Zauper]

I wasn't around when the cap was present Zaup; if you invested science beyond the cap would it just maintain that max level during growth, or is that just wasted gc? Or did it not even allow you to invest over the cap?

You could put in as many points as you wanted, they just would give 0 return once you hit the hard cap. So yes, you could still pump 10000000 bpa in a given category, if 200 were the cap, so it would just maintain the level as you grew. (that said, IIRC, the scaling between like 80% of max [~120-130 BPA) and 100% of max was like 3x). People never really pumped past 300 BPA in any single category.

[hermy]

Cheapen science a bit. Give a cap for the amount of books a province can have. For instance sages capped at 2000 bpa and non-sage capped at 1500 bpa*. Thus making prioritising categories a bit more important.

*Just an example, no thought went into any numbers.

[Ironballs]

Age 15 formula, I'm sure you can rearrange as required but this is just a lazy cut and paste from excel

Points required = (-(LN(1-(desired effect/max))))*(187.5+(1.25*POWER(acres;1.3)))

so if max is 35% then desired effect is 0-35%

Essentially the formula is an expoential so that you don't really reach the cap but you can get super close.

[reddeath]

I should have paid attention in calculus and algebra... But football was so much more interesting lol.

[Bishop]

If see anymore along the lines of " you are too dumb to give an opinion" type posts I'm banning you. Play nicely or not at all.