Chasity OVERPOWERED

[DjTeddySpin]

Chastity is a great addition to the spellbook. The spell alone is not overpowered due to the small duration and it doesnt do any 'real' damage at all. It gets powerfull once it's combined with certain spells / ops / attacks. Although I ve never used it and received about a ton of them upon myself I still consider chastity as a nice tool for a underpop strat. allowing the underpop strat to be effective, due to chastity, adds a nice piece of variation to the game.

I share the opinion with bugulu to leave it untouched or slightly increase the rune cost if it really has to be nerfed. Imo chastitity is one of the best implanted changes since I started playing a long time ago.



if you look at it like this 1 chastity is the same as 2 fireballs after 9 hours. thats not a hard / expensive spell as well. I dont hear people complaining about being FB'd to 1-2 ppa. peasant-grow without chastity will be insignificant at that point, with the ever lurking danger the same players logs in 12 hrs later to place you back at the same ppa with minimal effort. I really don't understand the aversion against chastity, if you nerf it there will be simular strategies to keep the same effect. (even deeper peasant reducements)

No, 1 chastity is not the same as 2 fireballs. In war you don't just lose peasants, you lose your army as well. When you get hit(not chained, just once is enough), you might overpop and lose peasants that you cannot replace(which easily amounts to a few thousands of them) even with incoming. Having chastity on is like capping a provinces' ability to grow or draft completely even with incoming lands.

What most of you defending it don't see is that birth rates is not the sole problem, birthrates cap leads to MANY other issues. That's what makes chastity OP. I wonder how many of you actually been in chastity coverage(or if the enemy is doing it right at all), because from what I observe, all you people ever think chastity is about is birth rates that's all.

[Palem]

@ wizwam - Only a small % of the game participate on these forums and I would say it's fair that those numbers are skewed more towards "serious" players, but I wouldn't say that the casual players aren't represented. That said, you don't see casual players complain much about chastity because they don't experience good chastity chains. Those require serious coordination and activity to make sure someone's got it on 24/7. Casual players really only compete with other casual players who aren't quite capable of pulling that off unless they've got a unique schedule of some kind.

@dj - You might have had chastity on for 12 hours, but not from one spell. The spell can't be cast for that long. And you can play around with the numbers all you want, but the fact remains, that at my size, I only lost out on ~1200 pezzies from chastity over 9 hours. That can EASILY be made up with kidnapping/troop aid.

No one is saying the spell isn't devastating when paired up with other spells. What we're saying is that it's good, but it's not overpowered. And yes, me and my kd have been smacked around with chastity and it wasn't a pleasant experience, but neither is being chained, or getting bottomfed on, but all of the situations are manageable.

[DjTeddySpin]

@dj - You might have had chastity on for 12 hours, but not from one spell. The spell can't be cast for that long. And you can play around with the numbers all you want, but the fact remains, that at my size, I only lost out on ~1200 pezzies from chastity over 9 hours. That can EASILY be made up with kidnapping/troop aid.

No one is saying the spell isn't devastating when paired up with other spells. What we're saying is that it's good, but it's not overpowered. And yes, me and my kd have been smacked around with chastity and it wasn't a pleasant experience, but neither is being chained, or getting bottomfed on, but all of the situations are manageable.

No Palem, I meant a SINGLE CAST.. Again with the kidnapping argument? Counting all the Failed ops, Thief deaths and low exchange rate of the hourly 5% stealth kidnapping, just for the sake of making up for a tick of peasant growth? I personally find it hard to believe how that is an effective counter measure or even worth the stealth trade off at all.

Lets say if riots were to stop all income, would you suggest stealing GCs or getting aid from KD mates as an effective counter-measure? The core of the problem still stands, if riot does that, its obviously OP and you fix the op, not suggest a weak solution.

[goodz]

Some in my KD have called for it to be reduced to a *.9 modifier so that homes and LP would somewhat allow pop to grow... Personally i would rather just see it get harder to cast, but reducing its power a bit wouldn't be ok as well...

[Palem]

No Palem, I meant a SINGLE CAST.. Again with the kidnapping argument? Counting all the Failed ops, Thief deaths and low exchange rate of the hourly 5% stealth kidnapping, just for the sake of making up for a tick of peasant growth? I personally find it hard to believe how that is an effective counter measure or even worth the stealth trade off at all.

It's not 5% stealth. It's 5% of your remaining stealth, and that's outside of war.

That said, I would need to kidnap 133 pezzies an hour to make up that difference. That's easily done with a single op.

Lets say if riots were to stop all income, would you suggest stealing GCs or getting aid from KD mates as an effective counter-measure? The core of the problem still stands, if riot does that, its obviously OP and you fix the op, not suggest a weak solution.

Not having an income means you can't pay your army, ever. It means you can't build, nor train, nor explore. That effect is far more instant than no birth rates. It doesn't even compare.

[DjTeddySpin]

It's not 5% stealth. It's 5% of your remaining stealth, and that's outside of war.

That said, I would need to kidnap 133 pezzies an hour to make up that difference. That's easily done with a single op.

No, we are using hourly stealth to make this calculations to be fair, how can you take into account overall/remaining stealth when you know in war, chastity isn't the only thing on your hands? Even as an attacker, I had no stealth majority of my wars. The MAXIMUM you can get from kidnap is 3.2% of the target's overall peasants. That is if you actually succeed! Sending that much thieves to do a kidnap op means if you failed, you are going to lose a hell lot more thieves. Not to mention you will be DRAFTING that small amount of peasants you kidnapped(unless you're telling me your army is immortal).

Not having an income means you can't pay your army, ever. It means you can't build, nor train, nor explore. That effect is far more instant than no birth rates. It doesn't even compare.

I am only using this as an example to show that we should be tackling the functionality of the spell/op because that's the core of the problem. You are taking it a step too far.

[Nics]

Keep the same difficulty and effects, but increase rune cost, it is pretty damn cheap!

[bugulu]

Dj,

My kingdom have been using Chastity two ages in a row. I don't have the numbers in my head what the duration was last age.
This age we are using Faery Sages.
At the start when all is equal (Your NW is close to your opponent), I have yet to see a chastity last 9 hours. Highest I have seen have so far been 8 hours, the most common are 6-7 hours, at war end it's reduced down to 4-5 hours due to gap difference.

I believe Mystics get additional +hours from Chastity, can someone confirm that?
If so the solution is quite easy, skip the +hours mystics get from chastity and cap it on 8 or 9 hours. Increase rune cost aswell by 25-30%.

[Bishop]

Lets say if riots were to stop all income, would you suggest stealing GCs or getting aid from KD mates as an effective counter-measure? The core of the problem still stands, if riot does that, its obviously OP and you fix the op, not suggest a weak solution.

You cant MV riots whereas you can MV chastity. Also, for chastity to be really effective you must have already been taken down to low pop - its not very usefull casting it on a fully popped prov.

bugulu: http://wiki.utopia-game.com/index.ph...ity#The_Mystic - * +30% Spell Duration (For Duration Spells Only)

[DjTeddySpin]

You cant MV riots whereas you can MV chastity. Also, for chastity to be really effective you must have already been taken down to low pop - its not very usefull casting it on a fully popped prov.

bugulu: http://wiki.utopia-game.com/index.ph...ity#The_Mystic - * +30% Spell Duration (For Duration Spells Only)

Like I have already explained Bishop, it is just to highlight that even if you have a weak solution to the problem it does not make the problem any less OP. You can invent a spell that stops all income for the sake of this argument but its still not about if it can be MVed or not.

If so the solution is quite easy, skip the +hours mystics get from chastity and cap it on 8 or 9 hours. Increase rune cost aswell by 25-30%.

That would be nice. But I am not sure how much rune increment would make the cut, as I do not have a sample to compare it's runes to acre ratio. Do you have any info you can post?

[Bishop]

See, I personally don't feel chastity is op. It takes a fair bit of work before casting it is actually worthwhile, the duration is short and you do have some options to negate it if you really want to.

[bugulu]

You cant MV riots whereas you can MV chastity. Also, for chastity to be really effective you must have already been taken down to low pop - its not very usefull casting it on a fully popped prov.

bugulu: http://wiki.utopia-game.com/index.ph...ity#The_Mystic - * +30% Spell Duration (For Duration Spells Only)

Thanks for the link, as usual, most answers for questions can be found in the manual hence the saying RTFM (Read The ****ing Manual!)

Sadly I have no numbers for you Dj, I was sitting one of our faeries for two weeks couple of weeks ago but I do not remember what the rune cost was exactly.
All I can say is that mana was more of a problem than runes.

[DjTeddySpin]

Sadly I have no numbers for you Dj, I was sitting one of our faeries for two weeks couple of weeks ago but I do not remember what the rune cost was exactly.
All I can say is that mana was more of a problem than runes.

Until I ran into a KD of faeries + undeads(which can also cast chastity). The plague + chastity + ms + storms was insane. But that's exceptional. Well, with or without chastity, mana shortage isn't a new thing in the Maging department imo.

[Luc]

You cant MV riots whereas you can MV chastity. Also, for chastity to be really effective you must have already been taken down to low pop - its not very usefull casting it on a fully popped prov.

MV is only of academic importance, because in practice it's impossible to keep mv'ing provs that get chastity 4-5 times a day. It costs way too much in both mana and runes to be an option in the actual game.

Also, stopping someone's population from growing is ALWAYS a good thing, even if they aren't really that short on peasants at the moment. Chastity is just way too cheap and easy for what it does, especially when mv'ing it is a non-option for anyone with a working brain.

People pulling the MV card is getting really tiring right about now.

[Humanoize]

Until I ran into a KD of faeries + undeads(which can also cast chastity). The plague + chastity + ms + storms was insane. But that's exceptional. Well, with or without chastity, mana shortage isn't a new thing in the Maging department imo.

You know a kd setup like this will probably result in a chastity strategy. Those races also have significant weaknesses. There are effective strategies to counter these setups even as non-hybrid attacker. You just have to work with your kingdom as a team to hurt these hybrids / full t/m's where it hurts them the most.

* reduce the full t/m's nw so (s)he wont have enough spellduration due to nw difference.
* let hybrids get fat in war so they wont have enough wpa to succesfully cast spells.
* Rune control so they cant cast all of those mentioned spells
* NB to prevent storms to reduce the total impact of this strat.
* Sapphire dragon against a hybrid kd setup like this.

But again this is about a combination of spells / ops / attacks with chastity. Like Bishop said the spell needs work done before it's usefull. Again chastity is not the real killer, the lack to draft and generate income is caused by peasant reduction due to ops/spell/attacks. It's an illusion you can stay in shape during war (unleash you are beating up a kd much weaker or if you are being left alone.) warring is all about endurance. peasant control is one of the tools to limit the enemy his ability to rebuild during war. chastity is just a tool to maintain a certain number of peasants and still there are ways to regain peasants. (attacking(TM) / kn / release ).