Guard Stations

[The Imp]

Why is everyone acting like undead run over 40DPA?

With hospitals I could chain them down to overpop, without hospitals i could chain them down to overpop.

So, when they become overpop they must release Theives and Dspecs. With hospitals you have to release more dspecs, meaning hospitals have very little effect.

No good KD Nightstikes an undead to get rid of defense

your crazy if you think they will not be able to chain 2 targets with 40DPA with or without hospitals in first wave. 2 targets per wave is minimum.

@bishop that's situational and dpsecs don't hold much NW anyway

[Bishop]

Not really The IMP - without hospitals the undead goes to land def very fast. Everyone (t/ms included) can hit him then with spare generals so his NW stays low.

[Gallowmere]

Precisely what Bishop said. I watched that monarch (and then his second heaviest hitter who was also Undead with no Hospitals) have their Dspecs tanked after 18 hits to the point where their only options were to release nearly all thieves, wizzies and a good bit of offense, or not attack.

When you only have 650 Dspecs left, are in 35%+ overpop, and have T/Ms in the other KD training some spare specs just to keep you broken, you're screwed. I watched him try to keep his offense intact by sending it out every chance he had, but in the end, he was so overpopped that he ended up having to release from 81k MO down to less than 40k just to get an attack out. Yeah, he was able to TT a suiciding small Undead we have...then the Undead waited for that guy's land to get in and then quad tapped him...and then another freshly OOP prov quad tapped him...then another. GBP is nearly useless in war, so expecting it to save you from almost non-existent defense is a horrible idea.

Would hospitals have helped under that kind of pressure? Absolutely. It also would have made me have to waste stealth on them instead of stabbing their thunderchicken that happened to be our third chain target.

[The Imp]

when you get chained in war thats what happens hospitals or not, you just gotta hope you have enough offense and rax to keep the gains coming in.

I'm not say hospitals can not be beneficial for undeads, but on a heavy attacker imo they are mainly for maintaining offense, and so for undead they are only at most 1/2 the building they should be.


You didn't adress my point about releasing when overpop.

Edit:

Would hospitals have helped under that kind of pressure? Absolutely. It also would have made me have to waste stealth on them instead of stabbing their thunderchicken that happened to be our third chain target.

No? He would just had to have release more Dspecs, the same amount of theives and the same amount of offense to become 15% overpop again.

I have just been in an Orc/Cleric vs Orc/Cleric war and i personally was down to under 1k d specs having 8k leets. Not even 50% losses could save me because i had to release so many troops being down to 200 acres, i just had to make sure i max gained and it ended up that i was able to come out of it ok.

Another good point is after 18 hits how many hospitals are you going to have left? I had about 80% unbuilt by the end of my war and even if i wanted hospitals it wasnt an option.

[Bishop]

Whats your point about overpop? Hospitals let an active player control what they release.

[The Imp]

Okay so say im overpop, release as many theives as i can etc etc.

With hospitals I have 5k def specs and I am 3k overpopped. 5k - 3k = 2k

Without Hospitals i have 3k def specs and I am 1k overpopped. 3k -1k = 2k

That is a basic example of what i meant - hospitals or not you need to get back to non overpopped and so you will end up with same defence anyway

[Gallowmere]

Exactly. He didn't have a choice anymore. He had almost no defense left to release, so he had to drop offense. He was literally at almost land defense, and still had to release offense to get attacks off.

He's now so far out of NW range that he's not even remotely a threat. He can't even break our fresh OOP provs anymore...he, nor his flunky. They were completely done before the war was even (theoretically) halfway over.

[Bishop]

Okay so say im overpop, release as many theives as i can etc etc.

With hospitals I have 5k def specs and I am 3k overpopped. 5k - 3k = 2k

Without Hospitals i have 3k def specs and I am 1k overpopped. 3k -1k = 2k

That is a basic example of what i meant - hospitals or not you need to get back to non overpopped and so you will end up with same defence anyway

With hospitals i just sent 2k spec at the dragon or sent 2k soldiers to someone that needed them.

[The Imp]

He's now so far out of NW range that he's not even remotely a threat. He can't even break our fresh OOP provs anymore...he, nor his flunky. They were completely done before the war was even (theoretically) halfway over.

Then they were doing something else wrong, seriously you overestimate the importance of hospitals if you think they are life or death for an undead

With hospitals i just sent 2k spec at the dragon or sent 2k soldiers to someone that needed them.

Where I come from we don't base our strats around the idea that when we get chained we can kill the dragon.

Edit: I seem to remember this debate coming up before involving you and someone else bishop.....

[Bishop]

We come from different places.

[Gallowmere]

Imp, you're missing the main point here. Hospitals can easily be the difference in chain speed. If your defense is dying off at a rate of say, 30% faster than it would be with hospitals, that's just more opportunity for us to switch from power hits to double/triple/quad taps. Provided that we had more clerics, we might even be able to throw in a fiver here and there.

When we can pick you off twice as fast with the same amount of offense, we're on to the next chain target all the quicker. The first chain target is a KD has a responsibility to the rest of his KDmates to hold himself up as long as possible. It's not something you can plan for, but that's how it works.

[The Imp]

Chaining isn't about speed it's about damage and the enemy's ability to bounce back and keep his offense.

Even if it was about speed all hospitals have done in Ordrays example have saved 2k defense (both with pitfalls or 3k both without)

thats around 10% of the original 25k defense saved..... which amounts to a mere 3.5 DPA presuming the province was ~700 acres running 35 DPA.

Are you going to tell me that 3.5 extra DPA ( which is the value lost at the end of the chain...) is going to considerably slow down a chain??

[Ordray]

Imp, that's only with pitfalls not BG, BL, or being hit by a Warrior personality. That's another 52% increase in losses. Being hit by an Orc/Warr who has BL on while you have BG and PF on will be equal to 90% higher losses, so nearly double the normal losses. If the enemy sends an Emerald then it's 119% higher.

[The Imp]

and if you are getting chained like that then having a few hospitals can't save you

[Ordray]

And worst case with 25% loss reduction from hospitals you're losing only 64% higher than base and not 119% higher.