Faery attacker/mage this age

[Ordray]

You mean by getting rid of useless peasants, preventing army defection? When getting chained you typically want to get rid of peasants ASAP.

And leave you unable to pay your military with your drastically reduced income which could lead to wages not being payed and either a.) you drawing resources from other KD members which could have been better spent elsewhere, b.) cause your attack to be delayed by an hour (or in some scenarios for multiple hours, perhaps even an entire unique missed depending on your schedule), c.) reduced military efficiency.
It's better to keep the peasants and have troops leave due to over pop. You can always send the excess to kill the dragon and/or aid soldiers to someone who is underpopulated.

[Ethan]

Ethan, long story short is you're wrong about how to play faery sage.

Not many other races can get to 70-80 opa and 120 dpa all out and faery sage is probably the only combo able to achieve the proper sci/honor stats to do it at any kingdom level. Unless you're in a kingdom that CFed everyone and hasn't warred and pumped sci all age (probably 1 or MAYBE 2 in the world), then Faery sage pretty much stands alone in being able to achieve those numbers consistently and independently of their kds.

Lets say the faery sage is running libs/sci a little bit better than mine as a human sage - aka, 25% pop and +25% BE. Lets say that gives 100% BE (it won't). Lets give it 25% TG, 25% forts, and let it steal horses to mount everything. No homes - you don't have room. They aren't as good anyway cause I gave you magic BE = 100%.

TG and forts give +28.125% ME, pay rate gives +7.6%. Total OME = 144.73%. Total DME = 140.73%.
At 80 OPA and 120 DPA, you now have 9.2 OSpec/Acre, and 12.1 EPA. Thus 21.3 ppa locked up in military. You have a total ppa of 25*.9*1.25 = 28.125.

Congrats, you have 6.8 PPA remaining to split between your TPA, WPA, and pes. Even if we skimp on TPA, and only go 1 raw... you've got an 80% DR. (It'd be worse if your BE weren't magically 100%)


Long story short - you made stuff up, I called you on it. Don't try bluffing the math major with bogus numbers.

[Ovenmitt]

Lets say the faery sage is running libs/sci a little bit better than mine as a human sage - aka, 25% pop and +25% BE. Lets say that gives 100% BE (it won't). Lets give it 25% TG, 25% forts, and let it steal horses to mount everything. No homes - you don't have room. They aren't as good anyway cause I gave you magic BE = 100%.

TG and forts give +28.125% ME, pay rate gives +7.6%. Total OME = 144.73%. Total DME = 140.73%.
At 80 OPA and 120 DPA, you now have 9.2 OSpec/Acre, and 12.1 EPA. Thus 21.3 ppa locked up in military. You have a total ppa of 25*.9*1.25 = 28.125.

Congrats, you have 6.8 PPA remaining to split between your TPA, WPA, and pes. Even if we skimp on TPA, and only go 1 raw... you've got an 80% DR. (It'd be worse if your BE weren't magically 100%)


Long story short - you made stuff up, I called you on it. Don't try bluffing the math major with bogus numbers.

If I traded 5 tpa for offspecs, and released 1 wpa, leaving me with 2tpa/wpa each (and 200 sci) then traded 10 banks for tgs, I'd have 140 ome as a duke and 6 offspecs/acre. That'd still be only 45 opa at 125 dpa... and I've got 20% pop sci + the ome/pop of a duke. You're most correct good sir.

[Shadowquizzy]

When faery had Fog this combination was possible. High WPA meant it was costly for the enemy to MV the Fog, while a semi-suicide defense meant they really, really wanted to hit you. In a top kingdom you'd need more than one, but a mid level kingdom could run one as chain bait, and just accept that half the time it's gonna get smacked around. Fanat + elite meant you could "pre-pump" defense to a degree, and if they ignored you stop sending it out - hey presto, you grew into the new land! (Great if you can make a run at UB, since you'll be UB with ToG!)

All of this worked though on the principal that your pop malus would be offset by a low defense. Which was acceptable because only a pure T/M could MV you, and even then it was hard. So you were chain bait with Fog on, potentially screwing over the whole opposing kingdom single handedly. Now, though? No Fog = no low defense = bad attacker.

Yes, a faery can put out about 88% of an Orcs top line MPNW as a "pure" attacker. So if you take sage, and pump well (and understand how good science is), you can play it as an A/M or even A/m in the getto. I know - my kingdom aint all that, and there were times where I wasn't depending on the Fog to mess them up, but merely being a better attacker. But as soon as the compitiion gets a little stiffer, that "skill" advantage evaporates, and you become a weaker version of an elf or dwarf. Which was acceptable when it was with Fog (since your mWPA will pass that of a dwarf easily), but much less so now. You might not be a weak link... but you won't reach your full potential anymore.

BTW, as a Faery/Sage trying to attack, consider A/t/m. Being able to steal horses and runes/gc, and maybe NS a pure attacker, is nice. Or be the intel ***** to use up the stealth. Top kingdoms will kill it, but at lower levels the only person on to try and MV will be the attacker trying to make the hit, so light mage should suffice usually.

thank you all for your responses I get it now, they basically nerfed the design i was looking for from the old days.

[Shadowquizzy]

I just wanted to followup by saying I use to play years ago so I can say from experience Ethan knows what he's talking about.

[Meeni]

25 * .9 * 1.25 * 1.17(duke) *1.05(20% homes) = 34.5 ppa

2 tpa 4 wpa 5 ppa
13 dspa
10.5 ospa

= 120 dpa 80 opa

13*7*1.12 *1.2 (forts)
10.5 * 5 * 1.075*1.09 * 1.25 = 77 no mercs no fanaticism no horses

15% homes 4% farm 10% banks 20% TG 20% forts 10% guilds 4% towers 17% libs

how hard is this?

EDIT: your numbers work for you, you just need to improve your playing skills :)

[Ethan]

According to the wiki, duke gives +18% pop. As far as I can tell, you left out the OME bonus from Duke, so your OPA is actually higher than listed.
To nitpick a bit - 10% forts won't give +20% DME, as you've listed. At your expected BE, you'll probably only get +11-13%. (I assume good BE sci, since housing is so strong as well.) But your base BE one 5 pes/a is 5/14.166 = 67%. Getting to 100% BE is a huge sci investment, which is what you'd need to get even +13.5% DME.
Same small % or two lost from OME.
A bigger point is that OME and DME are additive, not multiplicative. It isn't very common knowledge however - I only learned of this last age or early this age. But to demonstrate the difference this makes (with your numbers):
10.5 * 5 * 1.075*1.09 * 1.25 = 76.896
10.5 * 5 * (1 + .075 + .09 + .25) = 74.2875
A loss of 3.4% from your offense because of the unexpected calculation method the game uses.

Also, I'm suspicious of any attacking strat without hospitals (or an equivalent effect). Gotta chop something to fit those in, hurting something. No help that your PPA value cites 20% homes, but the build only fits 15%.

All of these little factors combine to *maybe* offset the major bonus of +18% OME from Duke. So, bits of slop, but the final values are actually somewhat reasonable given the situation assumed.


Which leads to the big problem with that scenario: there are currently only 43 dukes or higher in the game. As in, .6% of the server can get that high an honor. Even if we take the 100th province for honor... we only make it to a high count. Knocking out 8% pop and 8% OME, *way* too big a hit to overcome without resorting to extreme measures like drafting to 90% (as an estimate).

Yes, I intentionally skipped honor, both to simplify and to "sneak" a nerf into the math. Since I was rounding up elsewhere, I figured it was a fairly close balance for a normal level of honor. Which I would say, if you are generous, is baron. Not duke.


I should note that, with enough homes, I suspect the 70 opa 120 dpa is possible. But then you need to check the MPNW, since the NW is going to be very high, and you need to look at the lasting power, which will be very low because there's no room for hospitals or banks or pes for income (or science will be so high it could only happen via a land drop). But if we take those assumptions on an orc, I'd expect to be able to put out numbers that get up into the 150 opa, 80 dpa, range. Which is mostly just showing that if you measure only by one measure (OPA/DPA) and make some loose assumptions, you can blast any "real world" provs out of the water. The goal of a good breakdown is to avoid extremes, to avoid optimizing out parts that are needed for a good dynamic province - in general, to take any static optimization with a grain of salt.

Many others here will constantly "attack" me with the same arguments. I try for a balance between the "gut feel" dynamic considerations (how many hospitals, for example) and the static considerations. I'm sure I miss on occasion one way or another. I point at this though as evidence that I am aware of the problem... so blanket condemnations of either approach don't get much weight from me. Both are needed to reach the most accurate conclusions.

[Ovenmitt]

@Meeni: I could no doubt easily achieve those numbers at 5 peasants per acre, but then it would be an unmaintanable offense. Not enough money in the pot to keep it going. Possible? Yes. Real world? Nope. Not when EVERY other race does it better.

[Landro]

lolWHAT? Town watch will demolish your province if you are getting chained.

We always try to make sure to MV TW first before chaining to force more desertions

[Shadowquizzy]

According to the wiki, duke gives +18% pop. As far as I can tell, you left out the OME bonus from Duke, so your OPA is actually higher than listed.
To nitpick a bit - 10% forts won't give +20% DME, as you've listed. At your expected BE, you'll probably only get +11-13%. (I assume good BE sci, since housing is so strong as well.) But your base BE one 5 pes/a is 5/14.166 = 67%. Getting to 100% BE is a huge sci investment, which is what you'd need to get even +13.5% DME.
Same small % or two lost from OME.
A bigger point is that OME and DME are additive, not multiplicative. It isn't very common knowledge however - I only learned of this last age or early this age. But to demonstrate the difference this makes (with your numbers):
10.5 * 5 * 1.075*1.09 * 1.25 = 76.896
10.5 * 5 * (1 + .075 + .09 + .25) = 74.2875
A loss of 3.4% from your offense because of the unexpected calculation method the game uses.

Also, I'm suspicious of any attacking strat without hospitals (or an equivalent effect). Gotta chop something to fit those in, hurting something. No help that your PPA value cites 20% homes, but the build only fits 15%.

All of these little factors combine to *maybe* offset the major bonus of +18% OME from Duke. So, bits of slop, but the final values are actually somewhat reasonable given the situation assumed.


Which leads to the big problem with that scenario: there are currently only 43 dukes or higher in the game. As in, .6% of the server can get that high an honor. Even if we take the 100th province for honor... we only make it to a high count. Knocking out 8% pop and 8% OME, *way* too big a hit to overcome without resorting to extreme measures like drafting to 90% (as an estimate).

Yes, I intentionally skipped honor, both to simplify and to "sneak" a nerf into the math. Since I was rounding up elsewhere, I figured it was a fairly close balance for a normal level of honor. Which I would say, if you are generous, is baron. Not duke.


I should note that, with enough homes, I suspect the 70 opa 120 dpa is possible. But then you need to check the MPNW, since the NW is going to be very high, and you need to look at the lasting power, which will be very low because there's no room for hospitals or banks or pes for income (or science will be so high it could only happen via a land drop). But if we take those assumptions on an orc, I'd expect to be able to put out numbers that get up into the 150 opa, 80 dpa, range. Which is mostly just showing that if you measure only by one measure (OPA/DPA) and make some loose assumptions, you can blast any "real world" provs out of the water. The goal of a good breakdown is to avoid extremes, to avoid optimizing out parts that are needed for a good dynamic province - in general, to take any static optimization with a grain of salt.

Many others here will constantly "attack" me with the same arguments. I try for a balance between the "gut feel" dynamic considerations (how many hospitals, for example) and the static considerations. I'm sure I miss on occasion one way or another. I point at this though as evidence that I am aware of the problem... so blanket condemnations of either approach don't get much weight from me. Both are needed to reach the most accurate conclusions.

thanks

[Meeni]

@Meeni: I could no doubt easily achieve those numbers at 5 peasants per acre, but then it would be an unmaintanable offense. Not enough money in the pot to keep it going. Possible? Yes. Real world? Nope. Not when EVERY other race does it better.

Ovenmitt, why don't you show off your numbers? your prov can easily do it and you have to put things in the correct context. Compared to your kingdom, you don't even need 120 dpa... most of your wars should suffice with like 75-80 if i remember correctly which will let you have 8 pezzies if you wanted to...
Show me ONE setup that can hit those numbers consistently other than faery/sage. There's no elites to retrain, specs get ~60-70% freely retrained? You don't really need hosps to do it.

Ethan, I did do some guessing and bad math because i'm just throwing out plausible scenarios. My faeries (that are not even close to being the best, but are definitely decent players) are pulling 32 ppa without homes, without duke and fairly low on sci. We will look to make the conversion when they are ready.

Just because there aren't that many provs ready to make the transition out there (your example with the "only 50 dukes") doesn't mean it's not possible. There just aren't that many skilled players out there to do it. I'd say i see maybe 5-10 faeries that could and should make the transition. It's tough, but it doesn't mean it's wrong.

[Shadowquizzy]

Ovenmitt, why don't you show off your numbers? your prov can easily do it and you have to put things in the correct context. Compared to your kingdom, you don't even need 120 dpa... most of your wars should suffice with like 75-80 if i remember correctly which will let you have 8 pezzies if you wanted to...
Show me ONE setup that can hit those numbers consistently other than faery/sage. There's no elites to retrain, specs get ~60-70% freely retrained? You don't really need hosps to do it.

Ethan, I did do some guessing and bad math because i'm just throwing out plausible scenarios. My faeries (that are not even close to being the best, but are definitely decent players) are pulling 32 ppa without homes, without duke and fairly low on sci. We will look to make the conversion when they are ready.

Just because there aren't that many provs ready to make the transition out there (your example with the "only 50 dukes") doesn't mean it's not possible. There just aren't that many skilled players out there to do it. I'd say i see maybe 5-10 faeries that could and should make the transition. It's tough, but it doesn't mean it's wrong.

that's true as well

[Kemia]

Last age I was a fae/mystic, because what i know best is T/M and fae/mystic dude, i had 5 raw tpa/wpa and i ended up being about 250/300k and i did not explore any acres, got it all from LL/dice, now ill say the economy is **** but its self sustaining with tree of gold/ sci pumps when there are idle periods for the attackers, and i found the damage BEST suited being slightly smaller than my attackesrs about 5-10k in NW and in the end of the war, i would result as an unhittable unless they had large provs, however, ranking down a faery is hard to do!! I ended as viscount for honor, really close to count, but we did not get into enough wars and we are just a semi Kd more orientated with relax and real life than the game mostly, the one who deters to the game as their (priority, are the monarch, page, and guild leaders and pimp manager)

I do not know about fae/sage it would prove beneficial, however, the perso modifier is wicked + the 30% duration

[Ovenmitt]

I just rebuild some acres and reappropriated some troops. I'll let you know in 14 hours meeni

[octobrev]

...,

Indeed