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Thread: #2 province grande mucca deleted

  1. #106
    Sir Postalot
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    I'm with DHaran on this one and dorje a few pages back.

    1) It wasn't a fake war
    2) Even if you disagree with #1 you don't delete someone with 2 weeks left to go in the age after spending 3 months playing his province
    3) Even if you disagree with #1 you talk to the player first. Ryan is online 24/7 and its fairly easy to get ahold of him and say "I don't like this, stop it or I'm deleting" or you suspend.

    Deleting someone without any sort of precedence after spending as much time as he did on the game is just flat out wrong.
    Last edited by flogger; 24-01-2012 at 22:57.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Indeed there is not. Agreeing to have a fake war with someone though is what we call fake.
    To clear it a lil more. Just dont do the diplo with ingame msg`s.

  3. #108
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    While I do not disagree with the deletion (I feel the spirit of the game was definitely being violated) I disagree with the assertion made by Bishop and co that this deletion was for 'fake warring'.

    An arranged war with a nap is not a fake war, its a war between 2 ghettos. Simple. Now, if two ghetto's with all sub 1k acre provinces and 1 big prov each (say 2-3k acres) does this exact same thing, there would never be a deletion over it. Double standards due to size is wrong.

    In my opinion this incident does a lot to show what is wrong with utopia. The people in charge simply do not think things through in my opinion, or if they do, they do so with very little understanding.
    Last edited by brado; 24-01-2012 at 21:44.

  4. #109
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    This is quite outrageous. I've been reading through this whole thread, and I really can't understand how the Devs can believe in the strangest of mindsets that this will gain the server. I'm frankly quite disgusted by the obvious misuse of dev powers, and my will to play this game has really taken a hit today.
    And reading through this thread, I'm clearly not the only one.. GG on this one.

  5. #110
    007 licence to post Anri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaine View Post
    Hi, I'm Golden Maw from the kingdom warring against late grande mucca. Our king Astrael got deleted too. I just wanna let it be known that this war wasn't a fake war. It's still going, thought it seems that we are getting our butts handed to us :D I kinda guessed they had an agreement because they didn't attack each other, but never we got any instructions about it, so it clearly was between those 2 (and i can't find it surprising, no way our king would have taken on that war otherwise).

    We all were previously discussing how damned hard it was to find a war. So we lost our biggest member/king because he made a deal that finally allowed us small guys have a decent war. Honestly, I don't care THAT much (I only joined the game few weeks back myself) But Astrael was kinda the driving force that kept our kingdom slightly alive (he helped every newcomer in kingdom chat and had designated forum thread Q&A for newbies). Now that he's gone our ghetto will probably die for good.

    Edit:

    Don't know if it matters, but both Kings were participating in war fully; they both chained biggest normal sized targets with rest of the kingdom.. I should know, I was mucca's first target :D

    Edit2: Actually I lied, we just got a new king voted (finally) and did withdraw from the war.
    Sry about Astrael also. We did hit him a few times this age. No one should get deleted like him and grande mucca. They did nothing wrong.
    I hope your ghetto makes it without him. He seemed like a decent player. More like him is needed in the ghettos for the best of this game.

    To bad Bishop and the devs dont see it the same way as the players...
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  6. #111
    Sir Postalot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    I suggest a kingdom should not enter war unless they are prepared to war.
    The new rules kinda give the kingdom not prepared no real choice in the matter, however.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    The new rules kinda give the kingdom not prepared no real choice in the matter, however.
    lol, sometimes you enter war unprepared to get acres and get time-frame to pump in eowcf. Because we dont like backing down. I rather wd.

    A bit out of topic. But Bishop does not make sense at all..
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  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Campaigns like you posted will not be allowed.
    You aren't interested in seeing how the active playerbase views this situation? Your stated goal was to improve and grow the game. If the playerbase views diplomacy as an important component of the game, you seem to be setting up a situation where you can decide on a whim to delete someone and back it up with vague assertions which are lies.

    The bottom line is that I don't trust you Bishop to decide what is or isn't legitimate when it comes to diplomacy. Many would argue that diplomacy is the heart of the game, and along with that deception. You abuse power and throw your weight around all the time, and you are the last person I would trust to decide what is legit or not.

    The fact that you shut down a poll asking the community if they agreed or disagreed with your action speaks louder than anything you've said in this thread. The way you talk about things has a very Orwellian tone to it. How did Orwell put it? Truespeak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Indeed there is not. Agreeing to have a fake war with someone though is what we call fake.
    According to the next quote, both provs which were deleted were active in the war. There was nothing "fake" about it for them. They were participating in the war.

    Quite frankly, in situations where there is a "cow" prov, kingdoms frequently use diplomacy to mitigate the imbalance it causes. Who are you to decide that a certain prov must hit a certain other prov? Was Grande Mucca participating in the war? According to the enemy kd, yes. Was the other deleted prov participating in the war? According to people involved in said war, yes.

    Both provs were participating. They simply agreed ahead of time that in order to make the war a fair fight, the cow prov wouldn't just rape the smaller kd's largest prov repeatedly. That seems like a nice gesture and nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaine View Post
    Hi, I'm Golden Maw from the kingdom warring against late grande mucca. Our king Astrael got deleted too. I just wanna let it be known that this war wasn't a fake war. It's still going, thought it seems that we are getting our butts handed to us :D I kinda guessed they had an agreement because they didn't attack each other, but never we got any instructions about it, so it clearly was between those 2 (and i can't find it surprising, no way our king would have taken on that war otherwise).

    We all were previously discussing how damned hard it was to find a war. So we lost our biggest member/king because he made a deal that finally allowed us small guys have a decent war. Honestly, I don't care THAT much (I only joined the game few weeks back myself) But Astrael was kinda the driving force that kept our kingdom slightly alive (he helped every newcomer in kingdom chat and had designated forum thread Q&A for newbies). Now that he's gone our ghetto will probably die for good.

    Edit:

    Don't know if it matters, but both Kings were participating in war fully; they both chained biggest normal sized targets with rest of the kingdom.. I should know, I was mucca's first target :D

    Edit2: Actually I lied, we just got a new king voted (finally) and did withdraw from the war.
    Good to hear from an actual participant in the war to confirm that both provs were actively participating in the war.



    Bishop: You messed up. What Ryan did was a gesture to make a war between two ghetto's be as fair a fight as possible. It was a kind gesture by a skilled player who was in a ghetto and (apparently) helping teach new players how to play.

    You outlawed fake wars to stop allied kd's from going to war with each other to get -75% gains protection from outsiders while they did no hits or ops against each other and pumped in order to be better prepared to fight their enemies.

    You didn't outlaw fakewars so you could abuse vague wording to punish a guy who was doing good for his kd, did something nice for another kd to help both kd's have a more fair fight (which is more enjoyable for all participants, which only leads to player retention and growth).

    The bottom line is, for as long as I've known you and watched what you say and how you behave Bishop, I've observed one unchanging fact: You never ever, not even for a moment, consider that your viewpoint might be incorrect. And you never ever admit to having been wrong.

    In this case, the community clearly and nearly unanimously agrees that what you did was not in the spirit of the "fw's are now being actioned" notice you gave before the age.

    Honestly, it simply looks like you're playing favorites for someone or abusing your power for some other motive.

    But what I know is true is that you will never admit that you are wrong (even though you clearly are) and this will never be reversed. Until Sean and Brian get rid of you as the main "face" for this game, it will continue to stagnate and die. You have too frequently abused your power, been rude to people, refused to talk to people like a rational adult, and you are never open to any viewpoint but your own.

    Those are all terrible qualities for a Community Manager, which is essentially the role you play here.

    Just a bit of the way one nub sees it.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtopiaNub View Post
    You aren't interested in seeing how the active playerbase views this situation? Your stated goal was to improve and grow the game. If the playerbase views diplomacy as an important component of the game, you seem to be setting up a situation where you can decide on a whim to delete someone and back it up with vague assertions which are lies.

    The bottom line is that I don't trust you Bishop to decide what is or isn't legitimate when it comes to diplomacy. Many would argue that diplomacy is the heart of the game, and along with that deception. You abuse power and throw your weight around all the time, and you are the last person I would trust to decide what is legit or not.

    The fact that you shut down a poll asking the community if they agreed or disagreed with your action speaks louder than anything you've said in this thread. The way you talk about things has a very Orwellian tone to it. How did Orwell put it? Truespeak?



    According to the next quote, both provs which were deleted were active in the war. There was nothing "fake" about it for them. They were participating in the war.

    Quite frankly, in situations where there is a "cow" prov, kingdoms frequently use diplomacy to mitigate the imbalance it causes. Who are you to decide that a certain prov must hit a certain other prov? Was Grande Mucca participating in the war? According to the enemy kd, yes. Was the other deleted prov participating in the war? According to people involved in said war, yes.

    Both provs were participating. They simply agreed ahead of time that in order to make the war a fair fight, the cow prov wouldn't just rape the smaller kd's largest prov repeatedly. That seems like a nice gesture and nothing more.



    Good to hear from an actual participant in the war to confirm that both provs were actively participating in the war.



    Bishop: You messed up. What Ryan did was a gesture to make a war between two ghetto's be as fair a fight as possible. It was a kind gesture by a skilled player who was in a ghetto and (apparently) helping teach new players how to play.

    You outlawed fake wars to stop allied kd's from going to war with each other to get -75% gains protection from outsiders while they did no hits or ops against each other and pumped in order to be better prepared to fight their enemies.

    You didn't outlaw fakewars so you could abuse vague wording to punish a guy who was doing good for his kd, did something nice for another kd to help both kd's have a more fair fight (which is more enjoyable for all participants, which only leads to player retention and growth).

    The bottom line is, for as long as I've known you and watched what you say and how you behave Bishop, I've observed one unchanging fact: You never ever, not even for a moment, consider that your viewpoint might be incorrect. And you never ever admit to having been wrong.

    In this case, the community clearly and nearly unanimously agrees that what you did was not in the spirit of the "fw's are now being actioned" notice you gave before the age.

    Honestly, it simply looks like you're playing favorites for someone or abusing your power for some other motive.

    But what I know is true is that you will never admit that you are wrong (even though you clearly are) and this will never be reversed. Until Sean and Brian get rid of you as the main "face" for this game, it will continue to stagnate and die. You have too frequently abused your power, been rude to people, refused to talk to people like a rational adult, and you are never open to any viewpoint but your own.

    Those are all terrible qualities for a Community Manager, which is essentially the role you play here.

    Just a bit of the way one nub sees it.
    Well spoken!
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  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtopiaNub View Post
    You aren't interested in seeing how the active playerbase views this situation? Your stated goal was to improve and grow the game. If the playerbase views diplomacy as an important component of the game, you seem to be setting up a situation where you can decide on a whim to delete someone and back it up with vague assertions which are lies.

    The bottom line is that I don't trust you Bishop to decide what is or isn't legitimate when it comes to diplomacy. Many would argue that diplomacy is the heart of the game, and along with that deception. You abuse power and throw your weight around all the time, and you are the last person I would trust to decide what is legit or not.

    The fact that you shut down a poll asking the community if they agreed or disagreed with your action speaks louder than anything you've said in this thread. The way you talk about things has a very Orwellian tone to it. How did Orwell put it? Truespeak?



    According to the next quote, both provs which were deleted were active in the war. There was nothing "fake" about it for them. They were participating in the war.

    Quite frankly, in situations where there is a "cow" prov, kingdoms frequently use diplomacy to mitigate the imbalance it causes. Who are you to decide that a certain prov must hit a certain other prov? Was Grande Mucca participating in the war? According to the enemy kd, yes. Was the other deleted prov participating in the war? According to people involved in said war, yes.

    Both provs were participating. They simply agreed ahead of time that in order to make the war a fair fight, the cow prov wouldn't just rape the smaller kd's largest prov repeatedly. That seems like a nice gesture and nothing more.



    Good to hear from an actual participant in the war to confirm that both provs were actively participating in the war.



    Bishop: You messed up. What Ryan did was a gesture to make a war between two ghetto's be as fair a fight as possible. It was a kind gesture by a skilled player who was in a ghetto and (apparently) helping teach new players how to play.

    You outlawed fake wars to stop allied kd's from going to war with each other to get -75% gains protection from outsiders while they did no hits or ops against each other and pumped in order to be better prepared to fight their enemies.

    You didn't outlaw fakewars so you could abuse vague wording to punish a guy who was doing good for his kd, did something nice for another kd to help both kd's have a more fair fight (which is more enjoyable for all participants, which only leads to player retention and growth).

    The bottom line is, for as long as I've known you and watched what you say and how you behave Bishop, I've observed one unchanging fact: You never ever, not even for a moment, consider that your viewpoint might be incorrect. And you never ever admit to having been wrong.

    In this case, the community clearly and nearly unanimously agrees that what you did was not in the spirit of the "fw's are now being actioned" notice you gave before the age.

    Honestly, it simply looks like you're playing favorites for someone or abusing your power for some other motive.

    But what I know is true is that you will never admit that you are wrong (even though you clearly are) and this will never be reversed. Until Sean and Brian get rid of you as the main "face" for this game, it will continue to stagnate and die. You have too frequently abused your power, been rude to people, refused to talk to people like a rational adult, and you are never open to any viewpoint but your own.

    Those are all terrible qualities for a Community Manager, which is essentially the role you play here.

    Just a bit of the way one nub sees it.
    +200

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtopiaNub View Post
    You aren't interested in seeing how the active playerbase views this situation? Your stated goal was to improve and grow the game. If the playerbase views diplomacy as an important component of the game, you seem to be setting up a situation where you can decide on a whim to delete someone and back it up with vague assertions which are lies.

    The bottom line is that I don't trust you Bishop to decide what is or isn't legitimate when it comes to diplomacy. Many would argue that diplomacy is the heart of the game, and along with that deception. You abuse power and throw your weight around all the time, and you are the last person I would trust to decide what is legit or not.

    The fact that you shut down a poll asking the community if they agreed or disagreed with your action speaks louder than anything you've said in this thread. The way you talk about things has a very Orwellian tone to it. How did Orwell put it? Truespeak?



    According to the next quote, both provs which were deleted were active in the war. There was nothing "fake" about it for them. They were participating in the war.

    Quite frankly, in situations where there is a "cow" prov, kingdoms frequently use diplomacy to mitigate the imbalance it causes. Who are you to decide that a certain prov must hit a certain other prov? Was Grande Mucca participating in the war? According to the enemy kd, yes. Was the other deleted prov participating in the war? According to people involved in said war, yes.

    Both provs were participating. They simply agreed ahead of time that in order to make the war a fair fight, the cow prov wouldn't just rape the smaller kd's largest prov repeatedly. That seems like a nice gesture and nothing more.



    Good to hear from an actual participant in the war to confirm that both provs were actively participating in the war.



    Bishop: You messed up. What Ryan did was a gesture to make a war between two ghetto's be as fair a fight as possible. It was a kind gesture by a skilled player who was in a ghetto and (apparently) helping teach new players how to play.

    You outlawed fake wars to stop allied kd's from going to war with each other to get -75% gains protection from outsiders while they did no hits or ops against each other and pumped in order to be better prepared to fight their enemies.

    You didn't outlaw fakewars so you could abuse vague wording to punish a guy who was doing good for his kd, did something nice for another kd to help both kd's have a more fair fight (which is more enjoyable for all participants, which only leads to player retention and growth).

    The bottom line is, for as long as I've known you and watched what you say and how you behave Bishop, I've observed one unchanging fact: You never ever, not even for a moment, consider that your viewpoint might be incorrect. And you never ever admit to having been wrong.

    In this case, the community clearly and nearly unanimously agrees that what you did was not in the spirit of the "fw's are now being actioned" notice you gave before the age.

    Honestly, it simply looks like you're playing favorites for someone or abusing your power for some other motive.

    But what I know is true is that you will never admit that you are wrong (even though you clearly are) and this will never be reversed. Until Sean and Brian get rid of you as the main "face" for this game, it will continue to stagnate and die. You have too frequently abused your power, been rude to people, refused to talk to people like a rational adult, and you are never open to any viewpoint but your own.

    Those are all terrible qualities for a Community Manager, which is essentially the role you play here.

    Just a bit of the way one nub sees it.
    +300

  12. #117
    Regular Ryshad's Avatar
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    UtopiaNub ....... +10000.
    Everything in your province is peasant based

  13. #118
    Needs to get out more DHaran's Avatar
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    Holding Bishop's and the dev's view on this matter as a judgement on his abilities as a game admin and as a community manager is a bit dramatic. While I absolutely agree the wrong thing was done in THIS case, Bishop has been pretty awesome in my opinion in his management. I think this was a misstep by the devs, I won't use that to condemn someone who has done a whole lot more for the game than most of us have.
    S E C R E T S

  14. #119
    Forum Fanatic octobrev's Avatar
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    Ryan can still win this age
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  15. #120
    Post Demon
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    absolutely true DHaran.... taking this opportunity to condemn bishop is a bit strong.

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