Age 54 Potential Changes Rev II

[crease]

i see the turtling ability then raise you nw of elite, if you want to even touch an elite you want 1.5:1 ospecs:leets ratio, and even then you're 200 nwpa with poor per nw figures still. tog doesnt help when you have no wpa/tpa mods to protect ur peasants from fbs and naps, ur useless fodder, enjoy being left to rot.

Assume the best case sceneria for human. Sage mid-late age hitting 35 ppa.

Of which youre going to want 7 pezz/a to even think about using that tog.

2 raw wpa and 150% science to have ANY chance at defending against the most incompetent A/m
3 raw tpa 100% sci and 10/15% wt to defend against le thieves, since you will be econ prov they WILL be coming for you, so you can't skimp on them.
probably even 4 raw and 150% sci +15% tds since youve invested so much into defences that you might aswell go that little bit farther.

this leaves you with either 22 or 23 apa.

14-16 ospa 8-11epa

35 dpa=6 lpa home(wages+mp)
80 raw opa (leets+ospecs)
100 mopa leaving 35 dpa home

at 1k acres (for arguments sake)

your nw is:
7k - peasants
64k o specs
50k leets
20k+ thieves+wizzies
20-30k in science (assuming 2-3k bpa)
40k land

199k nw

let me put this into perpective, an elf can pull these numbers with 20+ mwpa and empty youre tog stash before you can use it, and elf doesnt look that good

[Pillz]

Human is useless. With a 5/5 army it is in the same position that Halflings and Gnomes used to be in. It will turtle, bottom feed or suicide. Ambush is not a legitimate offensive tactic, it you only get 50% of your land back. I don't remember Gnomes being any good at attacking when they had a 5/5 army and +10% pop.

Obviously Ambush protection should be attached to a personality rather than a race. And Avian getting a 7/3 elite it a good idea, but not coupled with 30% faster attack times. If the elite is improved, dont increase their attack time bonus.

Orc is not super strong. A 9/2 elite that costs 850gc and will get ambushed constantly? I remember Sanc thought that was awesome a few ages back, too. It didn't turn out so well for them. You'd have to anon every hit, so say goodbye to any honor or decent attack times. Otherwise you lose half your gains and have no army left after 24 hours.

[DarkPhenix]

I think that halfers are underdeveloped this coming age.

With the removal of -10% pop and aggression, halfers will have trouble finding enough offense to attack provinces their size (or relative size) while holding enough defence so you can thieve in peace.

A kingdom relies on a halfer to be able to break any enemy province with thievery. With the new changes, a halfer will be able to break any province which is not a problem but then what does the halfer do? Offense capabilities are weak, magic is unhindered but un-helped. It just seems like a halfer is now a thief and you can?t do anything about it.

This age ending, I was a halfer T/A and with quick feet i was able to attack smaller provinces then mine twice a day and this was because of the +10% pop. Without the pop bonus I think I will have trouble performing large enough attacks to really help the kingdom in wars without being exposed to being double tapped by the large offense enemy attackers.

Suggestions: any number of these would be great (not all of them)
1) Give an upgrade to pop 5% would be great so this increase can go into offensive specs so halfers can be more effective on the hybrid side.
2) Changing the elites to 6/5 (as suggested above) would be pointless because you would just attack with less units to have the high defence so this would not make a difference. Why not nerf the elites slightly to 6/4 and give +1 def spec bonus. Or a 4/6 elite and a +1 off spec bonus. This would give more offense while keeping defence the same and also let a halfer choose if they want to be heavy attacker or thief. I think the elite nerf would be needed as giving a +1 to spec bonus alone would be too great an advantage.
3) Quick feet back. If you make the halfer have to run a decent percentage of rax's then it will undervalue both offense and thievery further and greatly reduce efficiency.
4) -20% gains on attack but increase the offensive spec by 1. Make it so halfers can attack but will get less out of it.
5) an extra +1 stealth added. (so +2 all up). If you want us as a super thief then give us the stealth to do it.

This is just for halfers as I only know about halfers. I think they are undervalued compared to a lot of races but I don?t think they are super nerfed as others say. I think they just need a top up in the offense area even if nerfed somewhere else.

[crease]

the above example only leaves you with 45-55 dpa with all leets home, and that gives you no turtle ability at all really, if you want any more of this ability you are further adding 1.5 nwpa for each epa you add and becoming less efficient, 50dpa is about where i value turtling so i didnt add more, but you can choose to if you wish.

[crease]

@darkphoenix, you can now reach your mtpa target with 2/3 of the thieves as before, if you were running say 4.5 raw before then you only need 3 raw next age. This frees up pop for an extra 10-12 opa, go smash those targets again^^

[Topsy]

One comment: I don't like the fact that dwarf has both incredible offensive self spells, is an a/m, and has the +damage. It makes the buffs counterproductive, because if your 2 tapping every 11 hours and need to get quickfeet and fanatacism up both times, and have cs up 24/7 inorder to be using those great spells, then you don't have much room for fb/nado. And if you face some undead then you're really in trouble.

[puzzo]

human is only attacker race that can afford sage. And sage is crap imo. Maby remove sci protection completly and add some sci effectievnes.

Orc is OP, like way op , 9 off, elite credits, extra gains, atleast one of them needs to go imo and im not sure if reducing elit from 9 to 8 is enough.Maby take away elite credits, keep gains/9off.

[Pillz]

Removing elite credits from Orc is stupid. How the hell will they retrain their ambush losses then?

[DarkPhenix]

@crease. Agree that I will need less TPA to break which means i can transfer into OPA but even with this I still think halfers are too weak to hybrid efficiently. 5/6 elites sound great but compared to others out their they are very weak (excluding humans). Taking the figures, offensive troops give you 5 offence max. Defensive troops give you 6 defence max. orc 9-5, elf 6-6, dward 7-5. only hindered classes are fairy 3-8 and human 5-5 and with fairy you dont want to attack so thats all good. I think halfers should just be the same as elves yet one is magic and the other is thievery

[crease]

halfings can train 100gc soldiers in war that are 1 nw and 2 offense, if you are running low on offense then this is a very simple solution, however no province is supposed to be able to both attack in range perform ops well and expect to not be double tapped by heavy attackers in their nw range. An orc sage/warrior can quite possibly reach 170-180 opa, you have to not send out at all to not be double tapped by this kind of province, but a halfling is NOT supposed to be competitive in 2 aspects of war.

As for being in war, if you are being double tapped by an attacker and there arent 20 more hits coming straight after it then the province that hit you is helping you not hindering you. And if there are 20 more hits coming afterwards then halfings are stupidly resistant to trading acres after being chained and get to turtle and quad tap land def chainees in the other kd.

[marksss]

i played utopia since age 4, i am pretty sure i know how it works!

[Pillz]

After reviewing the changes:
Faery, Halfling, and Elf all share TPA/WPA bonuses. This is stupid.
Human, Dwarf and Avian all share op/spell damage bonuses. This is stupid.

Either Human or Dwarf should be modified to be an economic powerhouse.
Faery should have zero rune costs and lose the extra TPA/WPA bonus. They aren't there to run A/T or A/M provs, so they can dedicate more resources to having a higher TPA/WPA.

Sage should keep the 4 bpa bonus and get -10% research costs.
Give -50% losses from ambush attacks to War Hero, remove the draft costs bonus.

[Midoki]

halfings can train 100gc soldiers in war that are 1 nw and 2 offensekd.

1.5NW, this works out to be ~0.75opNW, wiki has off points value of 0.8opNW, only a 0.05 difference so is it really worth it for offence? Better for def than off, halfers leets tho are very nice for there dpNW. In def the values listed are 1NW for 1 def point, sols will be 3/4 of the NW for def points (exluding acres, wizzies, thieves which all dilute the ??NW values).




RE:Humans
This isn't in reply to any one person but from what i've read in this whole thread.

Has anyone considered that humans are not meant to be a "normal" race? To me they look like they have the greatest potential to run a/T/M, using forts instead of TG and the 0.5dpNW increase from the leets are acceptable if you dont run a full leet army but only using enough leets to "bottomfeed" or end of chain razes while staying unbreakable. Example of 10dsPA, 4EPA, 4WPA and 4TPA would still give you 5.5ppa.

They also look like dodgy "tanks", many ppl played MMORPGs? Aggro control.
Seeing a provence that has sent out too many troops can lead to them being targeted by kds that chain provences, more so if that provence made a so called bad hit and gained no land (maybe bounced), humans look like the expert race for this, to be precise Human Sage. The chain would pump up the WPA/TPA during the 1st wave which would inadvertanly boost there WPA/TPa and lend strength to there racial bonuses and at the same time allow other kd members to get a productive 1st wave in to set the stage, with the war win rewards I doubt many wars will be min time only and being able to help direct your opponants hits can be a useful thing.


Humans dont really have anything for attacking other than the WS spell, no +1 off spec or offencive leet and as such this doesn't scream out as a attacking race. If anything this race seems more of a oppertunist race, and as such I do feel the only change needed to be ballanced would be to decrese the leet NW to 5NW each.

[Pillz]

There is no such thing as having 'the greatest potential to run a/T/M". The proposed changes for human place them in a position very similar to what Gnome was in not long ago - to be an A/T. Or an A/M. Or a T/M. But to be bad at any of those combinations, and be without the option of becoming a competent attacker. A 5/5 army is a horrible gimp.

[kisame35]

I would like to see the:
-50% lands lost when ambushed

somewhere

Sages are good as they are

A sage KD that gets a good start at the beginning of the age would be a very tough KD