BIO vs ghettocats

[WickedL]

It's funny how much work is needed to make Insolence win something for once tho :).

[Elurin]

I think your arguments are fair ASF; the question is just where to draw the line. In an extreme example as someone presented; if 2 kd's have a CF until age 10 and then mean to fight it out - are they immune from outside interference from OOP until yr10? Obviously not. If a kd starts to hit another kd, and gets hit back - should they then be immune to interference? Obviously yes. In between we have a greyzone with different opinions; is 48 hour notice a standard "everyone has to stay out" period? What if 2 kd's have 4 days notice? or 8 days? Still immune for the full 8 days?

I don't think we will reach a common view here. To me this has little relation to the ops we made (flogger explicitly said his goal with the age was to do what we did last age, and that it was a mistake to get big, so obviously Bio for one thinks what we did last age is perfectly fine). To me this is related to hurt feelings and ruffled egos. It's very human to find this type of reasoning where a person's failure to perform is projected outside the self; e.g. if inso feels they have proven a failure in every aspect of a kd, they need to justify their own existence by finding a reason for their failures outside of their own kd. With a lack of the self esteem/belief in self to try to make the justification 1 vs 1, a convenient reason is found.

[goodz]

I am in a good mood too! Because it's friday!

warring Kingdoms unite and fight bio!

they are too evil as this thread makes clear!

[John Snowstorm]

the question is just where to draw the line

seems there's an easier way to resolve the question than just assuming you can OP from out of range as much as you want without ever getting GBd.

The easy answer is to be reasonable and do some diplomacy, that's what its for.

[Palem]

That's what that's for? I've just been chatting with people! ;p

[flogger]

I think your arguments are fair ASF; the question is just where to draw the line. In an extreme example as someone presented; if 2 kd's have a CF until age 10 and then mean to fight it out - are they immune from outside interference from OOP until yr10? Obviously not. If a kd starts to hit another kd, and gets hit back - should they then be immune to interference? Obviously yes. In between we have a greyzone with different opinions; is 48 hour notice a standard "everyone has to stay out" period? What if 2 kd's have 4 days notice? or 8 days? Still immune for the full 8 days?

I don't think we will reach a common view here. To me this has little relation to the ops we made (flogger explicitly said his goal with the age was to do what we did last age, and that it was a mistake to get big, so obviously Bio for one thinks what we did last age is perfectly fine). To me this is related to hurt feelings and ruffled egos. It's very human to find this type of reasoning where a person's failure to perform is projected outside the self; e.g. if inso feels they have proven a failure in every aspect of a kd, they need to justify their own existence by finding a reason for their failures outside of their own kd. With a lack of the self esteem/belief in self to try to make the justification 1 vs 1, a convenient reason is found.

3 Utopians can generally never agree where the line is, but when 6 utopians who all hate eachother agree it was crossed that usually is a good indicator.

I don't think BIO thinks robbing all age is perfectly fine. BIO wouldn't have done it to rage or sanc to the degree done by you because we know there would be reprecussions eventually.

The short answer to the quandry is fix the science system and no one will care about robbing anymore. All of these disagreements ultimately come from game flaws. If the ages lasted a month people would be alot less emotional. Since we have 4 month long ages, things always get trickier.

[jdorje]

The short answer to the quandry is fix the science system and no one will care about robbing anymore. All of these disagreements ultimately come from game flaws. If the ages lasted a month people would be alot less emotional. Since we have 4 month long ages, things always get trickier.

It's not the science system that is primarily broken, though it helps. It is the growth system that leads to all top kingdoms being forced into ceasefires (any two that fight early will just play themselves both out of the race) which then leads to everyone getting to pump superscience while being forced to stock megagold for when the ceasefires run out.

[flogger]

It's not the science system that is primarily broken, though it helps. It is the growth system that leads to all top kingdoms being forced into ceasefires (any two that fight early will just play themselves both out of the race) which then leads to everyone getting to pump superscience while being forced to stock megagold for when the ceasefires run out.

But with a radical chance in the science system one wouldn't need to be fat and thus stock serious amounts of gold with which to rob, and the effects of it being robbed wouldn't be nearly as great.

Such systems being something along the lines of making science a strict % allocation (no one can have "more" science but you can gain modifiers through attacking that make your province stronger). Or add protections to the peasants (essentially eliminate kidnap/FB and peasants leaving when land is lost) and have the game be a pure balance system where more peasants equals more income which has a more significant effect like being able to hourly pump money in science on say focused has a stronger effect than pumping yourself with military and putting science on none.

I've long since thought the game would be more interesting both protecting your income source (peasants) and making your income ability count for more than just what % wages you can afford from a strategic standpoint.

Big change though that could easily backfire and will likely take a few ages to perfect.

As stated numerous times, I don't disagree with your general main campaign slogan of dicing >> anything else as being anything but bad for the game.

[hanness]

I just dont get why such deep hatred for the robbing? What can they do? Not rob you and end up with no sci and get vultured by the t10 all age?

Like you said the sci system is broken, and "forces" the top to sit on absurdly low draft rates and pump, while warring kds who get into their range are "forced" to rob all t10s gold in order to get good enough sci levels to defend themselves. Hate the system not the Cats?

As for the GB, lets just say it erased all the respect BIO deserved from their preformance til now:(. In the end i don't think ghetto cats cares much about the GB, they got the war they wanted and emo wars is a lot of fun=). However, don't get me wrong, i think a bit of foul play spices up the game from time to time, but to soften up a KD that much smaller for a couple of days so another bigger kd can swoop in and finish them off is just beyond lame in my book, especially when you're a kd that claims to be FSU(ie not caring about charting).

If you aren't able to deal with the kd robbing you yourself. You deserve to be robbed.(which ofc is hard to deal with right now since even a min time win against a small kd is going to make you fall behind)

In the end i think the biggest issue is, dicing is too powerful aswell as hitting up being a bit too powerful, that if you go to war with a smaller kd like cats you fall too far behind.
and most importently, the sci system is garbage promoting low draft rates and redicolous gold piles.

[goodz]

this is fun. Keep utopia as is. Next age cats if you want we can play flog flogger!

[citadela01]

As for the "top kingdoms being robbed into pre-hostile" stuff... I feel that top kingdom battles are a big part of the intrigue of Utopia. I find the battles interesting both for my own kingdom and even with two other kingdoms. It's a bit like two top boxers/mma fighters/football teams/whatever battling. The kingdoms involved and even others watching don't want the results to be determined by which kingdom got thieved the most by a third party before the fight. It's like if a football team got roughed up on their way to the match and then couldn't compete properly and therefore the game was ruined. Although it is apparently fun for the ones doing the robbing, it ruins the fun for all those wanting to see a "fair" fight between the top kingdoms.

I just love this part.

Since when is "fair" a factor in the top ?? Dont get me wrong here, I personally think what Cats are doing is unnecesary and stupid. Stuff like stealin into top kd's stockin gc is done on daily basis but you oughta be smart about it, take a bit and move on. Waving Inso when they waved Rage is kinda lame in my book but allowed in any tier of gameplay, definitelly doesnt merits the amount of whining and powerplay it incured.

But maybe righteous players on these boards can enlighten me how is that any worse than all the crap goin on daily that has absolutelly nothing to with "fair". How about Rage noticing Bio after the HoH notice? Didnt Fury waved OS 2 ages ago only 3 hours after OS launched 20 hits wave and relations with receiving KD werent closed ? and didnt one of the most avid posters on these boards last age publicly announced the fact Rage served notice (to BiO if I remember correctly) thus announcing to whole server Rage is stockin 00's of millions of gc which as result lead to their stocks beein robbed ?
Or hell ... if you wanna cry about Cats abusin NW and stayin out of declare range wasnt Inso itself out of Rage's range when they got waved by Cats ? So when Inso abuses declare range and waves untrained KD in full dice build its ok cause they got OS, Bio and Simians covering their cowardly ass ... but when indie Cats pull a lame move its ok for entire antiabs lineup to go against them and powerplays them.

**** ... srsly ... amount of double standards, hypocricy and denial that developed arround this whole situation is simply staggering. Elurin is right, bruised egos couldnt stand the fact casual warrin KD is playin ball in their back yard and kickin their ass consistently. So they resorted to the public slander campaign and eventually after raisin enough racket just went for the good old powerplay.

Whatever dudes ... you guys can go ahead and pat eachother on the back thinkin you acomplished something ... ppl arent stupid tho, we know what you did and how low you stooped.

[Billah]

I find the battles interesting both for my own kingdom and even with two other kingdoms. It's a bit like two top boxers/mma fighters/football teams/whatever battling. The kingdoms involved and even others watching don't want the results to be determined by which kingdom got thieved the most by a third party before the fight. It's like if a football team got roughed up on their way to the match and then couldn't compete properly and therefore the game was ruined.

That's a really good way to put it.

[John Snowstorm]

Citadela: What an awful lot of disjointed nonsense you just spouted there. Very amusing.

When it comes down to it, it's really rather simple;

If you think you can steal from top kds without ever engaging in any diplomacy, eventually those kingdoms will do whatever is required to force the issue.

[Palem]

It's actually an awful way of putting it.


Let's say it's HoH vs Rage, which would most likely be for the crown. Now let's say Sanc screws with Rage right before their war and it skews the war heavily to HoH's favor. HoH farms out rage and wins the crown.
You really think HoH is going to be upset with Sanc because the fight wasn't "fair"?


The goal isn't to win fair fights. The goal isn't to play honorably. The goal isn't to make friends. The goal's to collect as many acres as possible. That's why the top sucks.

[John Snowstorm]

Palem putting his clearly expert knowledge of crown politics on display!


lmao.