I can see exactly where you get this from, however, if you increase the attack value of avian/dwarf to 8 (relative strength based on next age/-1 from orc/UD) you would find that the UD have not been weakened, avian/dwarf have been strengthened in comparison. I would concede that the UD/orc nerfs should be weakened a little in response to the other races getting stronger though, or weaken the buffs on avian/dwarf thievery/magic respectively.Originally Posted by AlphaWaveCascade
Faeries
+ 30% Spell Damage (Instant Spells)
+ 20% Sabotage damage*
+ 30% WPA and TPA
- 3 generals
Access to All Racial Spells
Elite: 3/6, 800gc, 6NW
So they only have 1 general to hit or 3? - 3 generals r -1 to 3 generals?
1
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Well buff a weaker race or weaken a stronger one, the end result is the same - they get closer in terms of ability. My point, though not explicit was really that the changes made it such that a supposed 'benefit' to Ud now put them in a position of actually being worse than the next 'teir' of attckers when considering a half leet to half spec ratio. And thus that the current set-up was perhaps a 'nerf' too far.
Anyway I find the whole 'leet conversion' mechanic is a little bizarre in terms of claiming it as a 'benefit'. That particular mechanic is one that people feel is synonymous to Ud as a race, but actually as a Ud you'd have to pay to train a huge proportion of your troops into leets anyway in order to be competitive in comparison to say an Orc (the other Heavy Attacker).
I think either the leet needs looking at again, the o-spec strengthening (so the difference is less) or the entire leet conversion system reviewing - because there seems little purpose to it if you have to train a huge portion of leets anyway.
This age, comparing the strongest offensive units of each race, UD/Orc have an average 47% offensive lead over the other races. If everyone is on horses then the lead is 40%.
With proposed changes the lead drops to 38% and 31% when on horses. So, UD/Orc got nerfed. Orc a little more so than UD since UD at least has the option of playing as some kind of hybrid, while orc does not.
pew pew. Absolutely none of my nubs speak for my kingdom.
Ud as an effective hybrid with no Racial bonus to tpa/wpa and a Sci penalty?
And in either case my point is still 'what is the purpose of the spec conversion mechanic if you have to pay to train all (or nearly all) leets in order to be competitive?'
None of us are in here *****ing or moaning so you can just shove that where the sun don't shine, son.
Retired at one time but no longer retired.
Yes, lots of kds do it. Look at cats for example. The land savings from farms and partial land savings from hospitals allow for hybrid buildings.
pew pew. Absolutely none of my nubs speak for my kingdom.
UD no losses on attacks. Rework leet conversion, +1 off spec strength so they can keep up with orcs OP leet credits or make UD leet 8/2 since its never been the same as orcs. Give em back nightmare also. Was fun running UD mystic lol
Avians should go back to not being ambushable. Cause seriously what other race can fly. And I remember someone saying something about ignoring forts. How about they ignore GS since they have -10% gains already. Or give them an Econ boost over sabotage, maybe -draft/wages.
halfling should get back their old pop bonus. Would make them much more viable since now people can just play human instead.
If these happen then the other races are fine
Many kingdoms will avoid this because it gives your kingdom a bad rep but some just don't care. I've made suggestions to fix this for many ages but so far nothing has changed
This is my province. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My province is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
My province, without me, is useless. Without my province, I am useless.
I must attack hard with my province. I must attack harder than my enemy who is trying to pk me. I must pk him before he pk's me. I will...
My thoughts on the changes;
Mechanics:
* Declaration and removal of topfeed protection is fine, explore also good
* Main issue for these changes is as jdorje pointed out the magical appereance of land from nowhere. My take is that 10 kd's on the server will take land until they're out of war range of anyone else and then it's back to dicing exactly like this age with NAPs in place - the other 290 kd's will always pick honor. The trend is that people landdrop and find other ways to activly stay small - giving people a choice to avoid growth, keep honor and stay small for warring ghettos is not promoting a gameplay where kd's have any incentive at all to face equal or tougher opponents. There has to be balance in the risk/reward spectra for taking on a war, facing an opponent with heaps of honor and many won wars entails a far higher risk of failure and thus must also give a higher reward. It's fine to make losing wars less hurting though.
- My proposal is to give the winning kd 5% of enemies land and 5% of enemies honor as a standard reward without loser actually losing this amount! It thus becomes more rewarding to face a higher honor kd (if you want honor) or higher land kd (if you want land). In addition it "forces" kd's that win wars to go up in charts to make people face kd's closer to their own capability over time (5% is probably not enough for this, but it's a step in that direction). Still, as the losing kd doesn't lose the land/honor there is less incentive to drag out a lost war.
* Remove explore/dice penalty in EoW CF - with FW's banned it's just an additional cost to rebuild from war. All the bonuses put in last age was aimed at helping quick rebuild, but the main drawback of war isn't the relatively lost science for warring but the spread in provs after a war makes the kd less efficient as a whole and promotes long rebuild periods to e.g. explore back up smallies or get T/M's in the right spots
* I agree with Petrified that fortified is too good at the moment, put the minimum duration to 3 days and have -50% gains on LL from fortified too.
Races:
* I fail to see why reducing numbers matters, it's all relative so I've no idea how this opens up "new strategies". Supposedly specs would be more used (reference good ol days), but I don't see it. Instead as someone proposed double all values to make for greater distinction possibilities or make specs 5 with proposed elite values and you'll see some races using spec armies.
* Faeries are even more necesarry with these changes than this age - and they're already a given in any war kd. People who think faery has a weakness in this thread should face a good kd using them, we've had ~5 of them 3 ages in a row and they've been untouchable by anyone we faced. It's boring that we need to pick this fae backbone every age cause if we don't have it and opponent do we cannot win.
* Humans got nerfed too badly, make elites 4/5 or take down price to 300 gc again - possibly also 50% spec price could work
* Rest is fine. No pers changes is a bit boring, but understandable. I suggest make merchant +25% income.
Last edited by Elurin; 30-07-2012 at 17:34.
based on preliminary figures and assuming that attacker dpa will be set at 25 heres a few basic numbers (no honour/sci/homes assumed)
ud: 3.5 w/tpa 5.5 dspa 10 epa - 25 dpa > 70 opa
orc: 3 w/tpa 5.5 dspa 10.5 epa - 25 dpa > 73.5 opa
avian:3.5 w/tpa 5.5 dspa 10 epa - 25 dpa > 60 opa
a/m
elf: 5 w/tpa 8.5 dspa 5.5 epa - 48 dpa > 30 opa
faery:5 w/tpa 7 epa 7 ospa - 48 dpa > 30 opa
a/t
halfer:5 w/tpa 7 epa 7 ospa - 39.5 dpa > 30 opa
human: 6 w/tpa 8.75 dspa 5.5 ospa - 39.5 dpa > 30 opa
wpa/tpa's are combined figures, you can split it how you wish.
(a/m and a/t roles are set up to be able to 1tap the pure A's and have all extra military in defence)
based on these numbers alone a/t is beyond useless next age, it can be double tapped and only single in return. a/m in either situation can single and be singled, elf has ambush potential afterwards whereas faery doesnt. Fae outputs equal magic damage to elf on instant spells at 75% rune costs and can pump better oow with tog.
just for arguments sake:
fae t/m: 7.5 w/tpa 11.5 epa > 77.8 dpa
this is much closer to ub than the previous age, with only a small honour/sci advantage a fae is ub from war start.
Last edited by crease; 30-07-2012 at 22:05.
Those are just base numbers drawn out on paper. For the scenario to have any weight you need to calculate for all variables. On top of that Halflings and Elves should target a Faery early on to cripple the Honor increase so that later in the age we don't hear people claiming that faeries are too strong. Remember that a Faery province can only gain honor in war because they can't attack effectively. Another thing is Stables and Dungeons are going to be more useful next age. Training Grounds got weaker but so did Forts. Just need to find the right balance on TGs, Stables, and Dungeons to maximize MO without leaving yourself open to double/triple taps.
A/t's being useless next age? An Avian is setup for a 6/3 elite and a 4 def spec. Why would you train def specs when it's only a 1 point difference? Yes at 10,000 military units it is a 10,000 point difference. However, You can put those same soldiers into elites, thieves, and wizards boosting your province overall. Avians can use attacking fast to counter the hits a bit more. An Avian double/triple tapping enemy provinces every 6~8 hours will be more effective than training def specs. Start getting chained and are online? Turn up the heat on thievery and mage ops if not already doing so. You should be gaining land faster than others anyway.
As far as Faery goes on this. You have to compare building setups and Forts will be weaker this age. Basically the Faery will be on par with the current Elf T/M with the bonus from Forts. Also, Most Faery provinces run 4rTPA and 4rWPA to try and deter Elves and Halflings. That's a combined of 8 tpa/wpa base which drops things to 11epa. 8 w/tpa | 11epa | 66dpa would be closer to what you'll see before mods are in place. I will grant that the one you posted would be more of an early age one since it will take a bit for T/Ms to get the wizard production set.
Last edited by Natsu; 30-07-2012 at 22:24.
T/Ms apparently = black sheep of Utopia.
horses, stables, mercenaries, prisoners, soldiers, aggression all got buffed. you may expect to see an increase of these in use.
This is very true. Most war kds would be forced to use faeries or suffer huge disadvantages when faced with other war kds that do use faeries (even if you run 1-3 faeries in your kd you would lose out to those that run 4-5 faeries in the long run)
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