How did USA become such a messed up country?

[Crazyguy]

You mention 2 out of the 7 key founding fathers. Francis Scott Key was not a founding father.

Apart from that, america was colonised by religious nutjobs and that still seems to be the case.

On Francis Scott Key, I will disagree. He played a "Key" role in founding our country, Just because his name wasn't on the Dec. of Independence doesn't take away his role. There are thousands of "founding fathers" not just John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and George Washington, the way that I, (and many others) see it. I would include statesmen, soldiers, diplomats and ordinary citizens that risked and gave their lives.

They were mostly extremely religious, but with different views, and they came together to form a country that would accept many religious viewpoint, together. That's why were free today!

[goodz]

24 pages is too much to read.. so I'll just reply to the first post..


The US is in better shape than a lot of the more socialist countries. All you have to do is look at all of the European countries that are having massive financing issues right now and then you see these same individuals look at the US and then judge. (I'm not saying you are one of these individuals, only using it as an example to set the scene for what I am writing) The US also is probably the most internationally publicized country in the world. They are in everything, and everyone in the world feels the need to watch them. It is somewhat understandable, everyone's economy is more or less linked, and the US has been a major leader in world politics for years.

With that said, the US is also one of the more ignorant in the world. I'm not saying the people are stupid, there are stupid people EVERYWHERE.. I've traveled the world enough to know that the actual level of "intelligence" is pretty similar no matter where you go. However, ignorance (not to be confused with stupidity) has been bred in the US for a few generations now, mostly in the more religious regions. In a country that practically panders to the religious groups whilst trying to say they keep them separate, it makes it very easy for these groups to gain influence, most notably Christians. This is where we begin to get into the issue.

The mindset of many American Christians is disturbing to say the least. I will use an example I saw recently... A "young earth" christian called into an Athiest TV show (Why they felt the need to force his beliefs upon each other, I do not know) and attempted to argue his view on the world. (to summarize what young earth Christians believe, based on the bible, the earth is about 6,000 years old. If you ask a geologist, it's closer to 4.5 billion years) I won't go into details on what they argued about, it's not important, but the basic gist of it was, the young earth christian would believe what he believes despite any proof you can provide, because it's what the bible says.

Now I don't care what people believe. If you want to believe the earth was created by space mice and they will return one day to eat all of our cheese and enslave our fish, then knock yourself out. Why do people care so much about what other people believe? Why do they feel compelled to FORCE their beliefs upon others? This dedication to their religion is a good example of what is wrong with the US today. If you refuse to believe one thing because it disagrees with your religious following, what else will you do?

Most Americans don't believe in evolution. It is to be noted that the vast majority of the scientific community believes in evolution.

One of the biggest factors in today's politics is religion. Why does this matter so much? Can a person not have strong morals without following a religion? What about party loyalty? A study was done, and found that many people's views on specific issues, clashed with the views of the party they identified themselves with.

If you want to fix the US, you need to do a few things.

1. Remove religion and all the special treatement it gets from the government entirely. No more tax free, no more special consideration. They can file as a non-profit organization like everyone else.

2. Get rid of the party system. It is ridiclous and only hurt's their progress as a nation.

3. Remove the bias from the news, and start holding them accountable for what they report and what they don't.

4. Ban lobbyists from profitable organizations (like businesses) They often hold back progress for the sake of their own bottom line. It hurts their country in the long run. You evolve or you die, let them learn this for themselves.



Before those things are done, the country will continue to struggle. They don't need to be socialized to be successful. They do need to get rid of these silly distractions so they can focus on what's important, like fixing their education system.



Anyways, that is my 2 cents (or 30 cents.. It's a fair bit)







You do realize that the founding fathers were hardly religious by today's standards, right? Besides, time's change.. This should be the age of science and innovation, not ignorance and bullying.

If you believe that doubt is placed to test your conviction this actually makes sense. The ability to believe even when "proof" is put in front of you is a good test of faith. I have no problems with religious folk who have believes that seem to me to be quite stupid. It is annoying to some extent when they try to push them on you. But for every christian pushing faith on you, you will find 10 worst mannered atheists peddling non belief.

I mean if god created everything could he not create things that appear to be older then they actually are? Its not really that huge of a leap to believe it.

In closing I don't consider myself very spiritual at all, but if it helps people cope with the world I see no harm in it. Religion I do not think is the danger that it once was :). Fanatics and crazy people will exist with and without spiritual belief.

Many great scientists are/were religious. Churches actually have done a great deal of good in keeping human history through periods of turmoil. Religion will always exist, arguing with someone about their beliefs is pretty stupid. People these days are pretty educated compared to 100 years ago and its not like some idiot telling them something is going to change their life long belief. Life of Pi was neat and he believed in a bunch of religions. Of course it was fictional but meh!

[LuckySports]

The founding fathers were EXTREMELY religious by today's standards. Speaking of ignorance, the original post is not based on fact.

Bullying? To disagree is to bully now? Nevermind that the original post was extremely disrespectful of America! If anything on this thread is bullying its this post which disparages my countrymen:

(BY STOFFI)
"I mean, no social security, no health coverage, 40 million poor, plenty more trailer trash, a middle class withering away, religious fanatics taking over, mad cowboy presidents and ignorance flourishing."


The founding fathers were religious, but this country was originally formed by Colonists who were so religiously fanatical that they left their country of origin, traveled for months with little food and water, and settled here to be able to practice their religion.

You can call it "bullying" that I picked apart the false, disparaging statements one by one and pointed out with fact they were nothing but slanderous attacks against my nationality, but it is not.

It is bullying to try to force someone to change who they are because you do not agree with their beliefs. I didn't say they weren't religious, only not greatly so compared to the people we have running about today.

Also - You might want to do some research on your chosen examples..

Benjamin Franklin - Deist
George Washington - Rarely referenced God in normal speech, and rarely attended church when not traveling.

The founding fathers (Those that are recognized as the founding fathers, not random other figures from the time, particularly a lawyer who used his position to subjugate opponents of slavery, and who's only major contribution to the founding of the nation was writing the Star Spangled Banner) Were able to agree that religious freedom, and keeping church and state separate was a good thing. That is something that we seem to have trouble managing nowadays.

You might as well just say you are Ethnocentric. I am American Military, but I am smart enough to know that our country has a lot to work on. I am proud to be an American, but I don't ignore the faults just because I am one.


Goodz - I don't have a problem with people being religious. The issue is people putting their religion WAY above sense and then trying to force it upon others. I don't agree with Atheist that do the same either.

[Bishop]

On Francis Scott Key, I will disagree. He played a "Key" role in founding our country, Just because his name wasn't on the Dec. of Independence doesn't take away his role. There are thousands of "founding fathers" not just John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and George Washington, the way that I, (and many others) see it. I would include statesmen, soldiers, diplomats and ordinary citizens that risked and gave their lives.

Disagree all you want, he wasn't a founding father though.

[DHaran]

The only reason his name wasn't on the Declaration of Independence is because he wasn't born yet. Other than that he totally should have been invited!

[Crazyguy]

Disagree all you want, he wasn't a founding father though.

I know who he is. I realize that he was born 3 yrs after the Dec of Ind. I included him because he wrote our national anthem.

Your changing the subject :D, And did you call me a crazyguy?

[stoffi]

24 pages is too much to read.. so I'll just reply to the first post..


The US is in better shape than a lot of the more socialist countries. All you have to do is look at all of the European countries that are having massive financing issues right now and then you see these same individuals look at the US and then judge. (I'm not saying you are one of these individuals, only using it as an example to set the scene for what I am writing) The US also is probably the most internationally publicized country in the world. They are in everything, and everyone in the world feels the need to watch them. It is somewhat understandable, everyone's economy is more or less linked, and the US has been a major leader in world politics for years.

With that said, the US is also one of the more ignorant in the world. I'm not saying the people are stupid, there are stupid people EVERYWHERE.. I've traveled the world enough to know that the actual level of "intelligence" is pretty similar no matter where you go. However, ignorance (not to be confused with stupidity) has been bred in the US for a few generations now, mostly in the more religious regions. In a country that practically panders to the religious groups whilst trying to say they keep them separate, it makes it very easy for these groups to gain influence, most notably Christians. This is where we begin to get into the issue.

The mindset of many American Christians is disturbing to say the least. I will use an example I saw recently... A "young earth" christian called into an Athiest TV show (Why they felt the need to force his beliefs upon each other, I do not know) and attempted to argue his view on the world. (to summarize what young earth Christians believe, based on the bible, the earth is about 6,000 years old. If you ask a geologist, it's closer to 4.5 billion years) I won't go into details on what they argued about, it's not important, but the basic gist of it was, the young earth christian would believe what he believes despite any proof you can provide, because it's what the bible says.

Now I don't care what people believe. If you want to believe the earth was created by space mice and they will return one day to eat all of our cheese and enslave our fish, then knock yourself out. Why do people care so much about what other people believe? Why do they feel compelled to FORCE their beliefs upon others? This dedication to their religion is a good example of what is wrong with the US today. If you refuse to believe one thing because it disagrees with your religious following, what else will you do?

Most Americans don't believe in evolution. It is to be noted that the vast majority of the scientific community believes in evolution.

One of the biggest factors in today's politics is religion. Why does this matter so much? Can a person not have strong morals without following a religion? What about party loyalty? A study was done, and found that many people's views on specific issues, clashed with the views of the party they identified themselves with.

If you want to fix the US, you need to do a few things.

1. Remove religion and all the special treatement it gets from the government entirely. No more tax free, no more special consideration. They can file as a non-profit organization like everyone else.

2. Get rid of the party system. It is ridiclous and only hurt's their progress as a nation.

3. Remove the bias from the news, and start holding them accountable for what they report and what they don't.

4. Ban lobbyists from profitable organizations (like businesses) They often hold back progress for the sake of their own bottom line. It hurts their country in the long run. You evolve or you die, let them learn this for themselves.



Before those things are done, the country will continue to struggle. They don't need to be socialized to be successful. They do need to get rid of these silly distractions so they can focus on what's important, like fixing their education system.



Anyways, that is my 2 cents (or 30 cents.. It's a fair bit)

Well said. Except a few things.

-The US isn't really in a better situation that the Southern European countries. Poverty in the US is much higher, and even if you have a job in the US, you can still be pretty poor. Poverty estimations in the US range from 20-48% depending on whom you ask. That's a lot higher than any other Western country. However, the US state in itself might be in a better shape because of its size and status.

- Also, removing the party system. What would be the alternative? Democracy is horrible, but it's the best we've got. You want single people running for presidency without a party to back them up. How will that change anything? The US needs more parties, it's not a real democracy atm.

[LuckySports]

Well said. Except a few things.

-The US isn't really in a better situation that the Southern European countries. Poverty in the US is much higher, and even if you have a job in the US, you can still be pretty poor. Poverty estimations in the US range from 20-48% depending on whom you ask. That's a lot higher than any other Western country. However, the US state in itself might be in a better shape because of its size and status.

- Also, removing the party system. What would be the alternative? Democracy is horrible, but it's the best we've got. You want single people running for presidency without a party to back them up. How will that change anything? The US needs more parties, it's not a real democracy atm.

- The US is in a better state than many European countries. You don't see nearly as many protests in the US. That's not to say they ARE in a good situation, but it is still better than many. Also - Even in poverty in the US, you can still have a roof over your head, clothes to keep you warm, and food in your belly, and a little cash in your pocket as long as you are willing to take advantage of the many programs for the low-income or poor. Some of those programs are TOO helpful, and results in some staying poor because they can live without having to work.

- I should probably change my wording to "You need to remove party loyalty" and vote for what is good for the nation, not what your party leader tells you to vote for. I understand the party system creates a bit of organization and provides funding for candidates, as well as making them easier to identify with for the average person. It also makes it common enough practice for someone who doesn't even agree with the individuals policies to vote for them, just because of their party affiliation. There was a study done on this recently.

[Crazyguy]

It is bullying to try to force someone to change who they are because you do not agree with their beliefs. I didn't say they weren't religious, only not greatly so compared to the people we have running about today.

Also - You might want to do some research on your chosen examples..

Benjamin Franklin - Deist
George Washington - Rarely referenced God in normal speech, and rarely attended church when not traveling.

The founding fathers (Those that are recognized as the founding fathers, not random other figures from the time, particularly a lawyer who used his position to subjugate opponents of slavery, and who's only major contribution to the founding of the nation was writing the Star Spangled Banner) Were able to agree that religious freedom, and keeping church and state separate was a good thing. That is something that we seem to have trouble managing nowadays.

You might as well just say you are Ethnocentric. I am American Military, but I am smart enough to know that our country has a lot to work on. I am proud to be an American, but I don't ignore the faults just because I am one.


Goodz - I don't have a problem with people being religious. The issue is people putting their religion WAY above sense and then trying to force it upon others. I don't agree with Atheist that do the same either.

I didn't try to force him to try to change who he was, I just disagreed with his statements. I also explained why I disagreed with them. I didn't call him names or make disparaging comments of any kind about his nationality!
I think that I debated the issues politely.

How am I "ethnocentric"? I'm not judging his nationality, just defending my own!
Ethnocentrism is judging another culture solely by the values and standards of one's own culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocentrism
Show me a post of mine anywhere on this forum that judges or disparages any nationality or ethnicity.

[Crazyguy]

Disagree all you want, he wasn't a founding father though.

"Some historians define the "Founding Fathers" to mean a larger group, including not only the Signers and the Framers but also all those who, whether as politicians, jurists, statesmen, soldiers, diplomats, or ordinary citizens, took part in winning American independence and creating the United States of America."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundin..._United_States

[Bishop]

Do they include people that weren't even alive then?

[thephatman]

"Some historians define the "Founding Fathers" to mean a larger group, including not only the Signers and the Framers but also all those who, whether as politicians, jurists, statesmen, soldiers, diplomats, or ordinary citizens, took part in winning American independence and creating the United States of America."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundin..._United_States

More misdirection from Bishop.

Besides, an easy historical argument could be made to extend the founding of the nation as late as 1789 with the adoption of the constitution or even 1812 our last war of independence against the British. Sadly we lost that one and it wasn't until Andrew Jackson became president that we were again financially independent. Though even more sadly, it lasted for a short time.

Though crazyguy, we didnt even adopt that song as the anthem until the 1930s or 40s and even then it was prettied up by the liberals.

[Crazyguy]

Do they include people that weren't even alive then?

Let me Google that for you:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Do+H...hrome&ie=UTF-8

My sources say yes. Along with Dred Scott and many others in the pre-Civil War era who helped to make our country what it is today.

[Bishop]

Let me Google that for you:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Do+H...hrome&ie=UTF-8

My sources say yes. Along with Dred Scott and many others in the pre-Civil War era who helped to make our country what it is today.

Your sources don't say yes though. The first link returned doesn't mention him as a founding father, merely as the guy that wrote the anthem.

[thephatman]

At least its not Canada.