Debauchery...

[Korp]

We agreed that we'd declare, that we would not hit more than 4x per province (i.e. no chaining), and we'd avoid destructive ops.

This is the issue.

[Bishop]

Come talk to me on irc so we can arrange this war so it benefits both of us.

Not my words of course. Just a snippet of the info that lead to this decision. That and the actual war data itself.

[THX1912]

This is the issue.

Why?

[Zauper]

I just wanted to insert my two cents here.

We were at 10.5M and Debauch was at 9.5, and sitting at 0/2 WWs we were just a target. We were being fed on by various Abs kingdoms, and as a first-round group of folks, we needed to get out from normal stance before we just kept giving away free land to waving KDs who would've crushed us in a war. We had the unfortunate circumstance of being big, having good players, but not being coordinated enough to war.

So Debauch offered war and we initially offered CF and wanted to move em along - of course! We knew that they'd essentially hand us our own backsides, but unfortunately, we also knew that we needed a war as we couldnt just sit in fort the rest of the age.

Essentially what SillyRabbit has said about how the war started, and ended, is exactly correct. We agreed that we'd declare, that we would not hit more than 4x per province (i.e. no chaining), and we'd avoid destructive ops. There was no other way we would war them, as a max gains slap-fest is fun whether we'd win or lose, but just watching our provinces get chained to the ground is not fun. We didn't necessarily ask to be "up" in land, more that we didn't want to have to spend 5 days rebuilding (hence the limit on destructive ops and chaining). So we agreed on terms and after a 24-hour max gains marathon, we agreed to withdraw as soon after the minimum time as possible if they'd let us get back to where we started. At the end of the day, that's exactly where we ended up.

A FAKE war, IMHO, would be one where land is traded for a WW. That's not what happened. One of our provinces lost thousands of acres, many of them lose thousands to LL, and we ended up maybe 1000 acres above where we were - but even that latter is only because we agreed not to drag the war out. We knew they wanted the WW, but also that they wanted to move it on, so their motivation in ending the war early led me to use that as leverage to allow us to come out positive in acreage. It wasnt an agreed-on kind of thing, it was no more "arranged" than most other wars. It certainly wasn't planned or Fake, as why would either of us risk deletion for 1000 acres on our end or a W on theirs, when theyd have gotten the crown anyways and we could've explored 1000 acres in less time? I dont get it. After playing on and off for a decade, I'm done with this game. It's been ruined.

Your story now seems to differ from SillyRabbit's story.

Did you guys make a second deal after 24h in which you would receive acres from them and WD as soon as possible? That is a fake war. One of the things is that you cannot have a ceasefire during the war, the war must be ended. So you couldn't war 'actively' for 48h, have a CF for 48h, and then have the 4 day EOWCF.

I'd also have to assume that terms themselves wouldn't be cause for deletion, so much as terms + following those terms.

Also, in spite of all the claims otherwise, we never killed a province for 'refusing to war us'. There's also nothing wrong with hostile diplomacy or polite diplomacy. The issue is entirely in breaking the rules (engaging in a fake war).

[pmyraje]

Come talk to me on irc so we can arrange this war so it benefits both of us.

Not my words of course. Just a snippet of the info that lead to this decision. That and the actual war data itself.

An in-game message of that nature is hard to argue with (except for the fact that, of course, nobody has ever bothered to define rules as to what war terms are acceptable).

Whether war data says much or not is debatable. The only real question is the starting of the war in the first place. Surrendering while up in acres is a red herring. It's basically just that based on these hidden unknown rules, a war between these two kingdoms should never have started. Once it had started there was only one kingdom who was going to get the war win, irrespective of pre-war agreements or tactics by either side within the war.

The only disappointing aspect really is that we all know huge numbers of other wars have also involved dodgy agreements, they were just either kept outside of any in-game chat or nobody cared.

[wutlol]

So much a hassle when it comes to this while lame ass KDs like BoB go around double teaming into KDs to force them into war, or simply just keep bashing on a smaller KD.
Fake wars are being punished, but what they are doing is all fine? Fair and honest warring, there well always be some sad people pushing things to extremes to a border line of getting away with it or not.

Either way, as some people said already, the whole definition of a fake war not being clearly stated is a huge shortcoming and imo failure of the people running this game, being consistent about creating clear rules of play. If things are simply left up to a personal opinion of an admin to allow or disallow, I find they should be a lot more thorough in other attempts to abuse the shortcoming rules and mechanics this game is running on. And really, if you go as far as to convict them as guilty, just deleting a monarch and clearing war wins is silly. Be thorough and just reset the whole KD, honor, science, make it so it's really not condoned. These halfassed random decisions is what causing the huge grey area around the rules in the first place.

In short, arranging fake wars or mid war cfs are lame and should be punished, KDs abusing rules/mechanics by forcing wars or actively hitting into other wars should be punished just as much. Last but not least, management of this game needs to wake up and for a start put some effort into making clearer rules rather than leave everything up to a random interpretation, such a huge shortcoming.

Just something easy which would solve a lot of problems, rather than just wave a KD first, send a message of declaration about time, conditions etcs. KDs can simply agree/disagree much like with sending/accepting a cf. Wasn't it in the past as well a KD could just offer war without wave? At the same time it would mean even KDs running lots of mystics/rogues/warriors whatever with fancy war boosts, to get some war offers, rather than never getting waved in fears of getting opped for over a week because the whole UF/Hostile system is just a screwed up as the definitions of things mentioned int he rules like what fake wars are or not.

Stupid overzealous reactions over this incident when it's happening all over the place, just now some people left some trace of their intentions. Quite hilarious our vague rules can only be enforced if there is send an igm.

[Bishop]

I disagree with everything you said.

[SillyRabbit]

Imagine you park your car along the curb, being careful to not park near any 'No Parking' signs. You return to your vehicle and you have a ticket for parking in a 'No Parking' zone. Clearly there are no signs indicating that this is a no parking zone and you should not have gotten the ticket. But, according to the Parking Officer, this is a 'No Parking' zone, despite the fact that there are no visible signs. And good luck trying to get out of the ticket when the same person who's writing the ticket is the lawyer, judge and jury!

[Bishop]

Irrelevant. This is a game, not real life.

[Korp]

Imagine you park your car along the curb, being careful to not park near any 'No Parking' signs. You return to your vehicle and you have a ticket for parking in a 'No Parking' zone. Clearly there are no signs indicating that this is a no parking zone and you should not have gotten the ticket. But, according to the Parking Officer, this is a 'No Parking' zone, despite the fact that there are no visible signs. And good luck trying to get out of the ticket when the same person who's writing the ticket is the lawyer, judge and jury!

Its more like, you park your car and you dont take a parking ticket even thou you need one then when you return you have a fine. Then you start complain about the fine while you should know that it was a risk you took when you didnt pay for the parkingticket.

[Ezzerland]

Imagine you park your car along the curb, being careful to not park near any 'No Parking' signs. You return to your vehicle and you have a ticket for parking in a 'No Parking' zone. Clearly there are no signs indicating that this is a no parking zone and you should not have gotten the ticket. But, according to the Parking Officer, this is a 'No Parking' zone, despite the fact that there are no visible signs. And good luck trying to get out of the ticket when the same person who's writing the ticket is the lawyer, judge and jury!

Except in this case you are parked between two no parking signs and just "oops, did not notice" them.

[SillyRabbit]

Except in this case you are parked between two no parking signs and just "oops, did not notice" them.

Even so, when it comes time to prove my guilt, those signs would be shown. Where are the specifications about what is and isn't a fake war?

EDIT: nvm, I guess Bishop decides what is OK and what isn't, depending on his mood (which is mostly grumpy)

[anti-fun]

No offense Bishop can you tell us what rules we broke and so we and the whole utopian community knows what can/can not be done in this game with a link thank you,and i did remember even past kingdoms who so called "faked" war were only removed of their previous win,but you took the step of removing all our wins,so can i say that our previous 7 wars were fake wars?

[pmyraje]

I think it is fair to say that if it were in the interests of those running the game the rules would be clear. Mushy and pliable rules are much better for making decisions on a case by case basis!

[THX1912]

No offense Bishop can you tell us what rules we broke and so we and the whole utopian community knows what can/can not be done in this game with a link thank you,and i did remember even past kingdoms who so called "faked" war were only removed of their previous win,but you took the step of removing all our wins,so can i say that our previous 7 wars were fake wars?

Then the war against ED was fake as well, and they should suffer the same punishment as Debauchery