Debauchery...

[ArcDurath]

ummm, I'm not in Debauchery.

[Tightpants]

ummm, I'm not in Debauchery.

grief is a universal emotion, and you are most certainly going through the stages

help me
help you

[Zauper]

grief is a universal emotion, and you are most certainly going through the stages

help me
help you

He mad.

U mad bro?

[ArcDurath]

drunk and jaded more than mad.

[Bishop]

Yes through war. You've said multiple times that fortified works exactly the same as war penalty so I am going by that. I've also been robbed many times through 10tpa in eowcf so I figured it's just gains.

Nah, that was a communication error - war has both, fortified has only gains.

[THX1912]

You are free to consider it over reacting. More people disagree with you though and that's really what counts. If the majority of players agreed that stealing into eowcf was cool then we would all be doing it. Behaviour is only acceptable as long as as the majority agree, or you are in such a position of power as to enforce your standards. Neither is the case here.

I totally agree with you there. That's why we're having this conversation. I hope that, with time, people's minds might change. I played this game a while ago, maybe 8 or 9 years ago, and I remember back then, gang bangs were pretty much frowned upon, and Peasant Kills were a very extreme thing that you'd use only when you had clearly won a war and your opponent refused to surrender (no auto-win back then). I left for a few years, and I come back to find that gang bangs are now called "chains" and are at the very center of war strategies. Hell, when someone doesn't chain, it's considered suspicious of being a fake war (looking at Debauchery's case here). I'm not sure, but I think back then, GB protection applied even during war, while now it is significantly reduced, so even game mechanics have changed to follow that change of mood. That is a pretty radical change of direction!

If you and the other game devs really don't want eowcf robing to become a thing, you can always change the mechanics. I know you don't want to completely remove interference into other's wars from the game, but you could alter ops so they behave much like intra-kd LL. When kidnapping or stealing into someone else's war, the victim looses the resources, but the perpetrator does not gain them. This way if KD A pisses off KD B, KD B can mess with KD A during their war with KD C, however they would not benefit from that, except for the satisfaction of knowing they got their revenge. I'm pretty sure anyone currently robing into eowcfs would stop if they didn't get the resources.

As for double stack of negative gains, I only know it does not work like this for spells as another kd was casting explosions on me from their war into my war and getting something like 6 hour durations, which is just -75% and not -93%. Have not tested thievery.

If I'm not mistaken, spells have a minimum duration, maybe that's why?

Yes through war. You've said multiple times that fortified works exactly the same as war penalty so I am going by that. I've also been robbed many times through 10tpa in eowcf so I figured it's just gains.

Was that this age? If so it really surprises me! Remember last age Fearies, Halfers and Humans (I think) all had pretty hefty bonuses to thievery efficiency, so against any other race they had a considerable advantage. It's not the case anymore.

Your tpa drops from 28 mod to 7 mod if its reduced 75%. To train enough theives to slow u down as an orc/undead i'd need roughly 2.5 raw tpa. Consider that MOST pure attackers dont even run that.

First, I said my mod TPA was at best 25, not 28. Please get your numbers right ;-)
Second, I don't know what KD you play in, but in mine, all attackers, even orcs and undeads, are expected to run 3TPA raw. I guess not all of them actually run that much, but I'm sure they all sit on at least 2 raw TPA. Perhaps you should consider changing things in your KD?
Third, Bishop, could you confirm if the -75% gains/effectiveness penalty for ops in and out of wars stacks when doings ops out of your war and into someone else's war? IE: if I'm in a eowcf and I rob from someone also in an eowcf, is the penalty -75% or -93.75%? I think this could make a big difference here.

You dont even consider that it takes a MINIMUM 24 hours to train that(18 hours to train, 6 hours to draft if u rush it)..during which time your priority should be hitting max pop & rebuilding not rushing tpa.

Again, please check your numbers. with IA, it takes 14 hours to train in war, not 18. And that's to have them all done. You only need to have enough of them by the time you have 4 or 5mil. Also, if you're not at max pop, your income will be lower and it'll take longer to amass enough cash to be worth robing from. If you have to spend cash to rebuild your lands, then it's going to be even longer. So you'll have plenty of time to draft a few soldiers and train them into thieves (which by the way is the only moment when they are cheaper, even without armories).

Now consider someone like me in after war. To slow u down as my human i need 2 raw tpa. 2 raw tpa=7000 peasants. 7000 peasants give me roughly 3.2 million gold if i keep them as peasants for 70 hours. Thats a substation amount of gold.
Also consider how much gold i need to draft/train to 70% and get "ready" for my next war. First i had to rebuild to 70% guilds (was AW hard) post war and draft from 30%.

10%->70%->20% guilds costs about 6 million gold. Training tpa costs 5 million gold. Training leets costs 13.5 million gold, drafting costs another 4 million. So i need about 28.5 million gold to be "war" ready...heres a hint if u take ZERO gold i wont be able to draft/train up that far during eowcf and that extra 3.2 million from not having 2 tpa makes a big impact on my ability to train up. When u take 5 million gold your taking 1/6 of the gold i need..my economy cant recover from that....my last eowcf i only made 17-20 million or so gc...thats not exactly the 30 million i needed

First: What are you doing to get down to 30% draft?!? Is that standard for you? I rarely drop bellow 50%, and I don't draft more than 65% to start with! If you lose 40% of your military every war, my only guess is that you're doing something wrong to start with!
Second: Again, get your numbers straight! Training 7k thieves in eowcf costs 2.45mil, not 5mil. Unless you imply that you're going to train more than 2TPA. If that's the case, that means you're going to train those 2TPA anyway. Training them early will cost you 3.2mil, but prevent me from stealing 5. So you save 1.8mil. In fact, if I see you sitting on 25+ mil gold, you can be sure I'll pass the word around and other TMs in my KD will rob you naked. So that 3.2mil you "lose" actually will allow you to pile up that much money. Tell me, oh please tell me, that you're not naive enough to think you can stack that much money and that nobody will fail to resist the temptation to take it from you!
Third, I have a very, very hard time believing those numbers. If your prov gets that messed up every war, either you are a terrible player, either you made that up. And I don't think you're a terrible player...
Edit: Forth: Drafting that much soldiers will take you most, if not all, of your eowcf anyway, so training those 2raw TPA early... you'll actually be drafting then anyway... you'll just get those 7k soldiers trained into troops that don't get wages right away instead of waiting. So in fact, if you loose that much of your army, training those thieves right away wont even affect your econ!

[Andr3w]

First: What are you doing to get down to 30% draft?!? Is that standard for you? I rarely drop bellow 50%, and I don't draft more than 65% to start with! If you lose 40% of your military every war, my only guess is that you're doing something wrong to start with!
Second: Again, get your numbers straight! Training 7k thieves in eowcf costs 2.45mil, not 5mil. Unless you imply that you're going to train more than 2TPA. If that's the case, that means you're going to train those 2TPA anyway. Training them early will cost you 3.2mil, but prevent me from stealing 5. So you save 1.8mil. In fact, if I see you sitting on 25+ mil gold, you can be sure I'll pass the word around and other TMs in my KD will rob you naked. So that 3.2mil you "lose" actually will allow you to pile up that much money. Tell me, oh please tell me, that you're not naive enough to think you can stack that much money and that nobody will fail to resist the temptation to take it from you!
Third, I have a very, very hard time believing those numbers. If your prov gets that messed up every war, either you are a terrible player, either you made that up. And I don't think you're a terrible player...

Im assuming Persain is talking about human (which he mentioned in his post), and your 2.45m for 7k thieves is based only for halfer...should be 3.5m for other race but I guess hes just giving you an estimate amount 5m+- for his current size 2rtpa...

Well depends on the war and the KD you play in and your role in it.. 40% military lost is possible.. if your dragon killer + NS/AW/FB hard + you gain lands? If your war is with 'terms' that war will be decided min time by NW/acre diff, then unlikely for you to lose that much military..

Hmmm never above 65%..that maybe applies for halfer TM..but not possible for attackers lol..with that low draft, ull either have crap tpa/epa/dspa...

[THX1912]

Im assuming Persain is talking about human (which he mentioned in his post), and your 2.45m for 7k thieves is based only for halfer...should be 3.5m for other race but I guess hes just giving you an estimate amount 5m+- for his current size 2rtpa...

Nope, my numbers are for a faery. In eowcf, thieves cost 350gc. Halfers get them even cheaper. You guys didn't know this?

[Andr3w]

Is it? Its just my n00bness then :D i forget such infos easily, bad memories about game mechanics..thus I never want/can be a monarch muahahaha...

[flutterby]

Is it? Its just my n00bness then :D i forget such infos easily, bad memories about game mechanics..thus I never want/can be a monarch muahahaha...

Yes Andr3w you're a noob... you hate sheep.. you hate pie!! What is wrong with you?

[Thunder TA]

Its simple to figure out. If it says someones in war. STFO. Simple fix .EOWCF still says war.Not really that hard and requires no game mechanics changed.Most here have plainly said its really frowned upon.

[THX1912]

Its simple to figure out. If it says someones in war. STFO. Simple fix .EOWCF still says war.Not really that hard and requires no game mechanics changed.Most here have plainly said its really frowned upon.

You're bringing absolutely nothing to this discussion.

I've pointed out Gang Bang was frowned upon and now it's the norm.
I've pointed out that eowcf is just an improved fort stance.

At least try and contradict me on something. Maybe tell me why it's so sacred to you? Why should I stay out?

At least say something constructive if you're going to spend time typing a reply!

[Sheister]

I like when cows kind of stand along the fence line watching traffic go by.... and then they like... moo.

that's awesome.

[silverfox]

You're bringing absolutely nothing to this discussion.

I've pointed out Gang Bang was frowned upon and now it's the norm.
I've pointed out that eowcf is just an improved fort stance.

At least try and contradict me on something. Maybe tell me why it's so sacred to you? Why should I stay out?

At least say something constructive if you're going to spend time typing a reply!

Stop trying to compare apples and oranges, it makes you look stupid.

Chaining has been perfectly fine for the vast majority of the games life span, if anything it would be game mechanics rather than players opinion which had the largest effect on the viability and acceptability of it.

By your logic then wars themselves are just another "improved fort stance" so why not just attack/op people in wars as well? Why not wave people who are already hostile because they have no stance to stop you? At what point does it become acceptable to target someone who's not in a position to fight back?

There is nothing to directly stop you from doing anything that game mechanics allow, but you asking for reasons why you shouldn't show a distinct lack of social awareness. Why is it legal to drink when you're 18 in the UK and 21 in the USA? Because each individual countries ruling bodies have decided this is acceptable, much like you can decide what is acceptable yourself, with the understanding that if most other people don't feel the same way then you run the risk of making enemies.

In general most people find it dickish to focus on a KD which is trying to rebuild and is in a state where it's semi protected from the outside, vulturing KDs after a war has always been looked down on so don't act like this is some new meta game which will become standard.

[Andr3w]

At least try and contradict me on something. Maybe tell me why it's so sacred to you? Why should I stay out?

At least say something constructive if you're going to spend time typing a reply!

said many times already lol.. you dont NEED to stay out, its totally up to you to op/hit into war/eowcf, none can stop you, your free to choose since no rule stated otherwise and its made that way by developer. Just need to accept whatever consequence it brings, its that simple :)