CR vs AMA

[Elit]

You're being petty. It's not about what you did, but HOW you did it. Hitting into eowcf deserves an apology, especially considering you had no real reason to do so. If you did, it would help to explain the reason why so people see that you did so for a justifiable reason which does not include "we wanted his acres and didn't want other kds to take them".

Why play the victim? What happened to being above that?
I just can't believe I have to ask these questions to people that I respect.

WE had retal war around yr 1-2 with him last age. Don't remember how its start but after all diplo failed we hit him enough for cant keep hit us in hostile/wars how he did. After it we moved on. Around yr 8-10 don't remember date i notice he grow alot in farm war where his kd was killed how its now again and its was clear he will hit us moment when war end. So we hit him first, he start retal. After we got some acres we offered him EOA nap, he was still big but its was refused so we keep trade hits till he drop enough to cant hit us again.

You think he deserve respect? For what? For use his kd for farm every age for grow? Sorry no respect this kind play. If he want to get respect he can start build kd and help other ppl learn game.

[Soul_Hunter]

Yes I am sure we are the first to hit into eowcf. Since I am in AMA i've seen Rage, Sanctuary, SWEA, Fratzia and bunch of others kds to hit into real wars. I am sure we are not the first kd to hit a smaller province in eowcf in 60 ages of history. I don't even recall when we did that, but i am sure a top 5 kd has its reasons in order to hit someone for 9000 acres [?] in eowcf besides just being lame. But go on. Tell us how bad we are.

P.S. I can always say we were defending fair play when we hit him in eowcf and say that explains it, but i won't.

I see Elit explained why did we hit him, i still don't remember it :)

[Nightmare_]

WE had retal war around yr 1-2 with him last age. Don't remember how its start but after all diplo failed we hit him enough for cant keep hit us in hostile/wars how he did. After it we moved on. Around yr 8-10 don't remember date i notice he grow alot in farm war where his kd was killed how its now again and its was clear he will hit us moment when war end. So we hit him first, he start retal. After we got some acres we offered him EOA nap, he was still big but its was refused so we keep trade hits till he drop enough to cant hit us again.

You think he deserve respect? For what? For use his kd for farm every age for grow? Sorry no respect this kind play. If he want to get respect he can start build kd and help other ppl learn game.

Elit, I don't understand why you don't "respect" that kind of play. Top KDs routinely try to farm other KDs, big or small. A solo province can't do that? You keep talking about "respect;" for what reason should other people respect you and your word if you will just make pre-emptive strikes to gain some acres for crown? Again I ask, why are you giving away your personal integrity for it?

Yes I am sure we are the first to hit into eowcf. Since I am in AMA i've seen Rage, Sanctuary, SWEA, Fratzia and bunch of others kds to hit into real wars. I am sure we are not the first kd to hit a smaller province in eowcf in 60 ages of history. I don't even recall when we did that, but i am sure a top 5 kd has its reasons in order to hit someone for 9000 acres [?] in eowcf besides just being lame. But go on. Tell us how bad we are.

P.S. I can always say we were defending fair play when we hit him in eowcf and say that explains it, but i won't.

I see Elit explained why did we hit him, i still don't remember it :)

SH, why stoop to that level? Will you continue to walk the dead-end because "other people are doing it?"

Again, I will state that I am personally against the decision to GB, and abstained from participating (besides some razes done while I was sat), but I don't understand why a KD that is pretty much seen as one of the best of its time continuously stoops to the level of those around them for some worthless accomplishment.

[Elit]

Elit, I don't understand why you don't "respect" that kind of play. Top KDs routinely try to farm other KDs, big or small. A solo province can't do that? You keep talking about "respect;"

He use his own kingdom for farm. So he just play for himself and don't care for rest.

[Soul_Hunter]

What exactly you want me to say? What is this bs? I simply state facts. Other kds did it and do it still. What dead-end walk wtf?! I simply said stop f**cking blame us for all bad things in Utopia and ask for nonsense such as apology. Logic is simple when u do bad things you get punished that's it. If you ask for apology you do it before you retal not after it.

[American Badass]

He has reasons for hitting us for last age and they are justified.
But he also hit us into active hostile, yes after we ****played him. But threatening to hit us every age? Was there not talk about clean slates?

Of course if the threatens to hit every age, we should find him ASAP and make sure he never grows to a size where he has that option. I dont see any reason or gain to CF every ghetto on the server, we need to grow aswell.

There was after all of this and AMA GB. I mean Ama deal broke for wrongs in the past. So AMAs rule is only they can carry over grudges?

Your whole post screams touches... I mean maybe we need to find AMA oop and GB them if they are going to ****play us later on in the age which we have all been threatened with?

[Fury]

There was after all of this and AMA GB. I mean Ama deal broke for wrongs in the past. So AMAs rule is only they can carry over grudges?

Everyone carries grudges?

I cant remember a single time we had ask anyone to apologize for an eye-for-an-eye scenario. Dont take my words out of context.

[Nightmare_]

He use his own kingdom for farm. So he just play for himself and don't care for rest.

KDs use other KDs for farming. KDs play for themselves and don't care for the rest.

The logic you're using doesn't make sense to me, for that reason.

What exactly you want me to say? What is this bs? I simply state facts. Other kds did it and do it still. What dead-end walk wtf?! I simply said stop f**cking blame us for all bad things in Utopia and ask for nonsense such as apology. Logic is simple when u do bad things you get punished that's it. If you ask for apology you do it before you retal not after it.

Then, the logic is simple as well. I've seen quite a few from AMA complain about GB. By your logic, you have no right to complain, and you will be punished in kind. If you're prepared for the consequences, then that's fine, but don't ask for any favors, and don't complain. Nothing more can be said then, because you're resolute in standing by the things you've done.

I agree with all of the things you've said, but what I dislike is how both AMA and the alliance are using logic that applies to both parties in order to further their own agendas.

[13nesta13]

I looked through each hit to not include razes, some of the formatters count it as acres gained. #02 did a 386 acre raze on our big Human that they all hit. All bank hits were acre grabs except the one hit. It took me a bit I knew Pyro did the most TM's so I started there, when I have more time I can post the other kd's that gained and how much. There was a few low acre grab screw ups by Pyro that probably were meant as razes.

** The kingdom of Pyro **
Total land exchanged: +14,512 (41/0)

+5,822 An unknown province (20/0)
+1,450 10 to your knees (1 [1]/0)
+1,349 17 how hard you hit (3 [2]/0)
+1,305 03 The world aint (2 [2]/0)
+998 02 something you already know (1 [1]/0)
+871 25 We did it (2 [2]/0)
+736 06 and nasty place (3 [3]/0)
+654 08 how tough you are (1 [1]/0)
+627 18 Its about how (3 [2]/0)
+440 24 Yo Adrian (2 [2]/0)
+131 12 permanently if you let it (1 [1]/0)
+117 11 and keep you there (1 [1]/0)
+12 05 Its a very mean (1 [1]/0)

** Summary **
Total attacks made: 114 (15,993 acres)
-- Traditional march: 47 (15,993 acres)
-- Raze: 63 (1,318 acres)
-- Failed: 4 (3.5% failure)
-- Uniques: 43
Total attacks suffered: 2 (327 acres)
-- Traditional march: 1 (0 acres)
-- Ambush: 1 (327 acres)

Yes, quite a few attacks were meant to be razes but nubbed it / misclicked and ended up being TMs. I myself clicked TM instead of raze, and TM'ed for zero acres with 20+h attack time on 2nd tap after forgetting to switch. Fails were razes that were nubbed, so all in all about 70% of our attacks are razes, and 30% land based.

And you obviously missed the razes I did as well on province #10, because very clearly I did them, and ended up being plagued for 12h, which was a nub move by me, resulting in lowered def and being unable to send a raze on your mid 10k human safely.

And I believe the numbers below are skewed due to my formatter bug, as in, raze hits got accounted into positive gains as well. I believe Elit had same problem when posting summary earlier when hostile with RBL. We gained far less. We started at 161.5k land, used up 6.2k pool, and grew 5*25*3=375 acres from daily bonus. Compared to our size now at 184k, we gained 184 - 161.5 - 6.2 - 0.375 = 12.9k.

** The kingdom of PyroManiaCs **
Total land exchanged: +15,666 (114/2)
+7,213 An unknown province (32/0)
+1,604 17 how hard you hit (9 [3]/0)
+1,495 10 to your knees (4 [3]/0)
+1,384 02 something you already know (2 [2]/0)
+1,305 03 The world aint (2 [2]/0)
+916 25 We did it (5 [2]/0)
+736 06 and nasty place (3 [3]/0)
+627 18 Its about how (3 [2]/0)
+485 24 Yo Adrian (5 [2]/0)
+359 08 how tough you are (3 [1]/1)
+251 12 permanently if you let it (9 [3]/0)
+132 11 and keep you there (2 [2]/0)
+105 07 I dont care (8 [3]/0)
+75 20 hit and keep moving (5 [3]/0)
+75 09 it will beat you (7 [2]/0)
+45 04 all sunshine and rainbows (3 [3]/0)
+45 14 is gonna hit as (3 [2]/0)
+45 23 keep moving forward (3 [1]/0)
+30 13 You me or nobody (3 [1]/0)
+30 22 you can take and (2 [1]/0)
+15 16 But it aint about (1 [1]/0)
+12 05 Its a very mean (1 [1]/0) <-- the nub raze turned TM

[Fury]

KDs use other KDs for farming. KDs play for themselves and don't care for the rest.

The logic you're using doesn't make sense to me, for that reason.

Then, the logic is simple as well. I've seen quite a few from AMA complain about GB. By your logic, you have no right to complain, and you will be punished in kind. If you're prepared for the consequences, then that's fine, but don't ask for any favors, and don't complain. Nothing more can be said then, because you're resolute in standing by the things you've done.

Complain about GB is a very broad description.

I dont think very many people agree with Pyro growing 15k acres out of this in the name of justice for example.

[Nightmare_]

Complain about GB is a very broad description.

I dont think very many people agree with Pyro growing 15k acres out of this in the name of justice for example.

Yes, and I will personally agree with that statement. You and I have no issues there. I will say that my views are my own, and not Pyros, though.

[13nesta13]

Hi everyone.

First of all, please allow me to apologise to Elit for 2 issues. 1) Nobody from PyroManiaCs should have pasted my log with Elit, especially from a 3rd party outside of me and him. It is greatly disrespectful. 2) I wished I would have done more to assure Elit that I would not sit back and allow CR to 2v1 them. CJ did most of the diplo with Elit as I was on a job trip, and in the short time we chatted, I only said I would try my best to convince CR to let us war fairly (and I immediately agreed when CR proposed that the winner between us wars them after 4 days eowcf + 4 days recovery post war). That was fine with me, but I never expected Elit to be so against that idea, to think of that as a farm deal to CR, so I left it at that and made no further enquiries.

Now to the issue at hand, in my discussions with Elit, I have always maintained I was looking forward to a very tough war, and I can say the same for my whole KD as well. Someone mentioned earlier PB/AMA waved us 5 ages ago and we didn’t push button. That is correct. I was in my final year of university getting busy with my thesis, and the whole KD had activity issues. We would have been raped by PB. But we have since improved leaps and bounds. I mean, can you imagine PyroManiaCs was bot-less until last age, and when the game introduced the in-game KD chat feature some time ago, it was like a god-send to me in terms of coordinating war efforts? I believe we are ready to give Elit a run for his money now.

Among other alternatives, Elit also suggested giving PyroManiaCs acres for extending CF to EOA, and he will give us his blessings while we pump and war CR 1 week later. I was receptive to that idea, because I knew it was well within the rules and deals all parties made, and that CR cannot complain one bit, because they just took 17-18k acres off Simians without resistance few days ago. That was about 20% of Simian’s total acres. All other farm deals, I did not agree to. So we forted up and trained as Elit advised, to be in a better spot to take AMA’s acres since they were all decently pumped to deal with Remote and his KD. Even though we were much more favourable of warring, we had to accept this deal because it was an all or nothing for us. We needed acres, be it through beating AMA in a war, or getting acres from a CF deal, to be able to fight CR who was 24k larger at that time.

Fast forward 36h, AMA chose to do something else after a KD vote, to dealbreak CR instead.

Regardless of how CR forced AMA’s hands by pushing them into a corner (with their so-called shady playing style, and with precedence of 2v1 on AMA few ages ago as they claim, but I did not follow happenings at the land charts up till late last age, so I am not privy to what happened in those situations), that was a blatant dealbreak on AMA’s end. CR needed help badly as they were caught with their pants down.

I will be first to admit I myself am no saint. On the top of my list of concerns was how the standings would play out if I lent a helping hand to CR. The group came to an agreement where we would be equally matched post war in acres with CR to fight one last battle. I have tried my best during the GB efforts to nullify AMA, and we are not primarily after the acres. I cannot stress this enough. Most of the hits came at the request of the group in the best way possible to handle AMA, and we followed, the bank hits included. For the whole conflict, we mainly focused on hitting AMA’s elves to control their econ at the request of CR, selective taps on small undeads who weren’t chain targets with troops home, and the rest razes. Yes, some of my nubs hit stray while I was offline, but that’s it. We only made 4 bank on bank hits, and had we been the greedy @s ses some people painted us to be, we would definitely not have made only 4 of them. The additional reason for us to make Bank TM hits instead of razes, was that I saw no reason to possibly jeopardise my own banks while being a participant to the GB. AMA's banks were 70-90% larger than the largest provinces in CR, and 20% larger than ours. Had we just razed in, with no incoming, and with AMA's banks UB to the whole of CR (and in fact, whole of the GB group), they could well have retaliated in kind with razes. There might come a situation post war where we might need to raze acres on ourselves, even those on banks, and we were prepared to do so.

Fast forward another 30 hours, where 4 provinces of AMA were PK’ed already, and 1 more was on his way down. I believed that was harsh enough on AMA for their dealbreak. (I may or may not be wrong, because this is the first time I’m taking part in a GB effort.) It was at the same time I had several parties talking to me, most of whom were telling me CR had its fair share of the blame in causing this situation (even without dealbreaking), and that AMA had been hit hard enough. I was also given information that the razes might have been linked to CR. Let’s all face it, it is virtually impossible we can ever prove CR’s innocence or guilt with 100% conviction in this issue. In the meantime, I asked for all hits from my KD on AMA to cease, and I informed maximouse about it, while I try to talk to more people, and to solve things amicably possibly. CJ did his fair share of talking around too. It is not easy that this is the first time ever we have been exposed to such a situation, and we are indeed trying our best.

All in all, I hope we can come together and reach a solution for all parties involved. Some may feel short-changed, some may get the better end of it. It is never possible to find a deal where everyone gets what they want 100%, when so many parties are involved. I only wish we can look beyond this issue, and move on. This is a competitive war/strategy game; competition is healthy, but there is no need for such animosity and hatred lying around. The game doesn’t need that. Can we all just be friends? We all need to come together at a same time on IRC to talk this out, to find a solution, instead of throwing punches back and forth right here in this meaningless forum.

[Soul_Hunter]

Nightmare in 90% of my posts i say I agree with being gbed. I don't agree with the blames and that we are used as a scape goat for others to justify personal gains and other bs. IMO if the fairplay had just razed and dropped our banks for 30-40k acres that would have been just fine. No need to ask to raze them later, no pks, no grudges, no gains. Simple raze of banks =taking us out of crown race and punishment. But no, they had to pk core provinces - provinces that would be most useful out of the crown fight,and left the banks just to demand us to raze them later. Also doing tms with Pyro with the argument that they have to match CR in land despite the fact that AB, who is a jk, claimed many times that the deal was for CR to drop land after the WW. Why gain land if CR would drop land? Why involve 12 kds for a punishment when only 3-4 are really influenced by the crown race and can do it by themselves? And if the top 15 gbs us and cf each other, and later we are not allowed to go after ANY of them...wtf? What are we supposed to do? So many ways that punishment could be done fair and hard for us. But it didn't happen.

P.S. thank you Nesta for clearing it out that your hits were done the way CR asked for :).

[Aranfein]

Korp - But you're probably not a big kd, you're not whoring or otherwise competing so its doesnt prevent the point. Random people in ghettos dont get just free CFs cause thats one acre sources less

Korp as i said previously I do give free CFs no strings attached....Where i play has next to no meaning regardless of my post, but i do play in the top10 if it matters to you.

Elit - Your right, a direct competitor you will ofcourse not so easily give a no string attached CF, however ive done it before.
1). Thinking people keep their words when making one.
2). Believe friends wont backtab.

You take your pick out of those. I might play it a bit naive, but if i don't, it seems i have to be ****playing and i don't want to, it sometimes costs my KD for how i play but it also limits the people that wish to ****play us, as they know if i give my word i keep it.

Yes i can be difficult to deal with as a leader but only when someone ****plays me. - And so far there is only 1 in the top thats done that, and no it wasnt AMA :)

[faegan]

Actually, how can his rights not be completely void after he ALSO breaks his own rules by hitting us into hostile afterwards?

If it was top10 KD A who hit into hostile from Top KD B, later in the age B hit into the hostile of KD A, then most people would count the situation as settled or at least as both parties equally dirty.

Now, next age Remote hits us completely unprovoked, IN THAT AGE. And now asks for an apology? How does that make sense?

Legit question and good point.