BB vs PewPew

[Binar]

.

They chose to be annoying throughout the past week, but their actions are their own so we march ahead... we haven't even made a successful hit yet and they lost 8000 acres, so are we supposed to be sad about it? :P

Ive never heard of you before, but I dont like you

[Palem]

Sheister is of the impression that this is a casual game and not putting in as much effort as you can is a bad thing for the game.

[Sheister]

Sheister, i didn't say BB is scumbags or any other like it. I just don't like this tactic, its don't make it less legit or valid. Its my personal opinion.

I never intended to marshal your statements as support for my saying they are scumbags. I said that you called the tactic lame. The scumbaggery is completely and 100% ME.


Meeni, it is that attitude that is part of the problem as I said. So BB notices pew pew when they are in a position of complete advantage. Then they get annoyed when pew pew does whatever it is going to do to try to deal with it. Then holding every advantage under the sun and seeing that pew pew further did not prepare well, BB decides to bounce down cows when they could have just as easily performed a straight up fight and still won but in a way that is fun for all. Like I said, if it is my decision in the future, BB gets zero consideration.

no one complained about bounces being unfair when dorje organized a server wide bouncewave on me on genesis. and i got bounced by over 50 different kds! bouncing is part of the game. every kd has bounce waved someone at some point. if bouncing someone to soften them up is against the spirit of the game, maybe you should take out all spells and ops in hostile. no one thinks twice about opping someone that waves them for 2 days to soften them before declare. it's the same thing.

Shockwave,

I was not around then, so I would not have been able to voice how crappy I think it is. I have never organized a bounce wave except in retaliation of one into my KD. Intentionally bouncing is garbage, particularly when you are in a position to win without it.

But I guess this does highlight yet another difference between people who think that games should be both competitive and fun vs. those that think winning at any cost is the most important thing. Would I like to crown? Sure I would. Would I like to crown by making everyone else have less fun? No, I would not. Its just sad.

incidentally, shockwave, is that your horse?

So you are a loser or a liar. You are saying every conflict in the game you never had any advantages of all when you warred, everything you done has been fair and good for the game? Ill assume you never been in any alliances, never gangbanged anyone, never traded or played in a trade. Is all this correct or should you just shut your cakehole and realize you are as scummy as everyone else.

By your definitions Korp I am sure I am a loser. I never said I never had advantages while I warred. I can say I never did a bounce wave or mechanic abuse when I was in a position of advantage. I have never participated in any gangbangs.

Sheister is of the impression that this is a casual game and not putting in as much effort as you can is a bad thing for the game.

No Palem, I am of the impression that games are meant to be fun and that things that are done which make the game un-fun are generally deleterious to the health of the game. You have never seen me say that a conflict between pew pew and BB should be casual. But it should be fun.

**edit**

let me put this another way. One of the reasons to play straight and not be crappy is that others will treat you the same way. BB has show that even when it holds every advantage under the sun, it will play crappy despite that. So no matter how I treat them, BB will do this. There is no reason to give BB any consideration, benefit of the doubt, or kindness. Given this example, there is no reason for any kingdom to believe that BB will ever treat anyone any differently. Ergo, no one should play with any courtesy to BB at all. Does no one see where this leads? Its sad. Now I could opt to be vengeful and say, well now I will try to do something scummy to BB and I am now justified because of this. OTOH, I could just focus on having fun. So, its not like I am going to go out of my way to do anything about this and I accept that it is part of how the game is played now, but just the same, it is sad. I know I am rather willfully blind in that I constantly hope that kingdoms will not play like this despite the numerous examples where they do and every age I add another kingdom to the list of douchebags that I will never again give any trust to.

Elit, you may be glad to know that at least from MY perspective, AMA (along with pyro and pew) is one of the ONLY KDs in the top that could get any trust from me. (which I am sure will make many people laugh). But AMA has (thus far) not done anything scummy to me or any KD I was in playing in while I was there. I hope that those two KDs at least remain courteous to me in the future (no I am not holding my breath on that).

[protector]

...

What exactly did we do that was scummy/lame?
For what it's worth:
July 2-3rd YR5 (less than 24h before notice expires) Ryan msges me asking for cf extend. If he wouldn't get it, he would just use zz/pyro/rage to dodge us.
I asked Ryan how much time was needed to prepare to fight us. His response was "fighting you isn't in our interest". He probably meant that it wasn't in his interest... A few days later I asked him the same.
Instead of talking with me to set a date to war that fitted us both, all that came out was stuff like this:

[22:30] <Ryan> I'm having the courtest to tell you ahead of time so you can keep pumping etc
[22:30] <Ryan> courtesy
[22:30] <protector> occupied with whom? with zz?
[22:31] <Ryan> pyro rage zz
[22:31] <Ryan> numerous options

As ya'll know, 2 hours before we could notice PewPew, they noticed Pyro (65% of their size) so our notice was invalid. 48h later I still gave them the notice. I think PewPew was 93% of our size.
Word went around that Ryan had arranged a war with RBL so that RBL could avoid AMA and Pew could avoid BB. When Tox got back from his vacation he seemed surprised about what was going on and he said he intended to fight us.
Don't be a dick telling me what we did was lame. I asked several times for what time would fit them, it gets completely ignored and all I get is a "we have other options".

A whole lotta drama over nothing.

To other kingdoms out there, ask yourselves "just because we can do something and it is advantageous, should we? Is that how we would want to be treated?"

Pewpew bouncewaved this age against Legacy.
I've been bouncewaved by Havoc/CR a couple ages ago.
If I can fireball someone, should I not do it because he can't fireball me back?

[Sheister]

What exactly did we do that was scummy/lame?

*snip* numerous irrelevant deflection IRC logs *snip*

Don't be a dick telling me what we did was lame. I asked several times for what time would fit them, it gets completely ignored and all I get is a "we have other options".

A whole lotta drama over nothing.

Pewpew bouncewaved this age against Legacy.
I've been bouncewaved by Havoc/CR a couple ages ago.
If I can fireball someone, should I not do it because he can't fireball me back?

What you did that was lame is, with a clear preparation advantage (as Meeni stated pew pew was poorly prepared), with a 3 to 2 cow advantage, with reportedly massive gold advantage, with a NW and land advantage, and I am guessing a TM advantage too, you chose to bounce wave a kingdom rather than just having a fun and productive war that everyone could enjoy. That is scummy. If I am ever in diplomacy with BB in the future, none of your threats will mean anything to me because I will assume that you will do any or all of those actions regardless of what I do.

That pew pew was scummy to legacy does not make you less scummy. That CR is scummy does not make you less scummy. There is a large difference between bouncing down provinces and fireballs. I think you can appreciate the difference.

Again protector, this is just my opinion. Numerous posters here think I am just a loser and clearly wrong. Its fine. I am just letting you all know my opinion of this matter so that, if I am ever forced to do diplomacy with your kingdom, you will understand WHY you will get no consideration or trust from me or any kingdom that accepts my advice. I do not like kingdoms that, when they are almost certain to win regardless of the tactics chosen, elect to use the most un-fun and scummy method available to them. You could have had a nice war with pew pew, would have won anyway, and likely would have gained many acres from it. Now you will gain nothing but bad blood with pew pew and from me because of my personal distaste for your tactics.

[Cello]

Wait, what? Sheister, the big advocate for the fact that banks are all-powerful, and that banks are broken, is now saying that bouncing a cow's defense down to a breakable number makes it too easy to take them down and that it would give too much of an advantage over cows? But what if, say, a semi-organized ghetto did the same thing? Could they not take down cows in the same fashion? Are you really now saying, after all your posts about how cows are broken and overpowered and can't be dealt with, that there is a way to deal with them effectively?

Bouncing cows down has been done for ages now and until they change a bounce to 1 on the meter, it's not going to stop. It's an effective way to deal with cows. Want things to be nice and casual? Don't try to compete in the top, but join one of many warring KDs on the server that play with less activity and dedication than the top KDs do.

[Spice]

This should teach kds not to go for the maximum at all times but keep it fun for all parties involved

[Sheister]

Wait, what? Sheister, the big advocate for the fact that banks are all-powerful, and that banks are broken, is now saying that bouncing a cow's defense down to a breakable number makes it too easy to take them down and that it would give too much of an advantage over cows? But what if, say, a semi-organized ghetto did the same thing? Could they not take down cows in the same fashion? Are you really now saying, after all your posts about how cows are broken and overpowered and can't be dealt with, that there is a way to deal with them effectively?

Bouncing cows down has been done for ages now and until they change a bounce to 1 on the meter, it's not going to stop. It's an effective way to deal with cows. Want things to be nice and casual? Don't try to compete in the top, but join one of many warring KDs on the server that play with less activity and dedication than the top KDs do.

Cello,

My point in the other threads is that cows deter competition on the server as a whole. Not with respect to those kingdoms capable of making and managing a cow.

My point in this thread is that it is scummy when you are on better than even footing with another KD to use bounces against them. BB did not need to bounce the cow to break it. BB has three cows that are similar in size or larger and could break especially if pew pew were to send out the army on one of those cows.

Again, no one is saying this should have been a casual war. It should have been a fun war though.

[Meeni]

Dwarves have 20% faster attacks, equal hit strength, more longevity in war, and better turtle ability than orcs! That's not fair!

[Cello]

Cello,

My point in the other threads is that cows deter competition on the server as a whole. Not with respect to those kingdoms capable of making and managing a cow.

My point in this thread is that it is scummy when you are on better than even footing with another KD to use bounces against them. BB did not need to bounce the cow to break it. BB has three cows that are similar in size or larger and could break especially if pew pew were to send out the army on one of those cows.

Again, no one is saying this should have been a casual war. It should have been a fun war though.

And as protector was saying, they were given plenty of time to prepare. Protector even wanted to set a war date at a later time, leaving pew2 room enough to plan their strats and actually have their banks and kingdom prepared as well as BB does. With a properly prepared, trained core and cash reserves there is no reason why a dorf core wouldn't beat an orc core. And 2 v. 3 cows isn't an automatic loss, there's strategies to win there as well. Just ask Elit. He's cowed in the underdog position plenty enough, and come out winning. BB's strategical advantages were only advantages because pew2 messed up their planning. They knew way ahead of time that BB was coming for them, and instead of preparing for the nice war that you wanted, they twisted left and right in order to find a way out of a fair conflict by noticing kingdoms and threatening to go into a farm war with kingdoms nearly half their size just to avoid having to fight BB.

[Binar]

And as protector was saying, they were given plenty of time to prepare. Protector even wanted to set a war date at a later time, leaving pew2 room enough to plan their strats and actually have their banks and kingdom prepared as well as BB does. With a properly prepared, trained core and cash reserves there is no reason why a dorf core wouldn't beat an orc core. And 2 v. 3 cows isn't an automatic loss, there's strategies to win there as well. Just ask Elit. He's cowed in the underdog position plenty enough, and come out winning. BB's strategical advantages were only advantages because pew2 messed up their planning. They knew way ahead of time that BB was coming for them, and instead of preparing for the nice war that you wanted, they twisted left and right in order to find a way out of a fair conflict by noticing kingdoms and threatening to go into a farm war with kingdoms nearly half their size just to avoid having to fight BB.

Blablablabla, noCowAcres4BB

[Cello]

Blablablabla, noCowAcres4BB

#Hashtag #fail #YouMissedIt

[Binar]

#OhhFackIforgottHashtag

[Sheister]

And despite all of that BB was in a position to solidly beat them without having to be scummy and chose to be scummy in their choice and method. Where BB could have just straight up beaten them, instead everyone is left with nothing but a negative view of the outcome (either with respect to pewpew, BB or both.) Why not have a well fought engagement and then have everyone say "good war" at the end and still get along? Why choose actions that just make people vengeful or angry?

I know this is a truly alien concept to most of you, but really, why not just be nice people? There are so few kingdoms that you can just have a fun and competitive experience (win or lose) against. Its just sad. We muddle it up with all this diplomatic artifice that just gets everyone annoyed. Then we layer it with crappy opportunistic play that just makes everyone pissed off when it happens to them and "lol" maliciously when they do it.... its just sickening.

[Darkie89]

Sheister,

I think u make a few misstakes here.

1. Why would we go uf or hostile with pew in one go and let them happily fg our stack while they have button.
2. Pewpew could come out swinging and force our orcs to send out. I think they would've been in a better position then.
3. Why would we hit pew with a bank first and open him to their banks?
4. I mean all u talk about would be us to lose advantages to pew, which we created due to a better preparation. Pew decided to waste resources on a elf and dorf for exploring. Pew had all chances and still have to win core battle.
5. Pew's banks and other provs been starving of gc or food before we even noticed, i mean wtf.
6. They tried to bounce our faeries and realised it didnt pan out (tactical error)
7. So on.

U are trying to make us bullies while we are mot. Pew didnt came to us for cf extension or any kind of diplo. Do u really think they would be in a better position if they had warred rage?

Notice how i dont complain about intra razing or stalling tactics. I think we've been fair in all the ways we could have been, considering all our advantages.

#crown4kuhan!