Library question

[Anatak1989]

So I was reading one of the recent suggestions about libraries and schools, and I'm just kind of wondering; when is it viable to actually build libraries? I'd imagine you need to be pumped a ton for it to really shine, but does it work well in ghettoes when nobody ever has THAT much science? I suppose I can see when it would be good for a TM, since those science bonuses are huge, so I guess I'm mainly wondering if it's ever good on attackers. I just feel like it's better to put that 10-15% or whatever into another area to focus your strategy.

[Bo To]

Libs/schools are bad for attacker not because you cant get books and sci but because you lose your attacking potential. Attackers need more buildings than t/ms(rainbow build) while t/ms need less but focused buildings. Also attackers(in theory) play with more off than def so its easy an attacker to get doubled or tripled with army out(I mean oow). Usually you get learned when your KD has ww.

It's not impossible or forbidden to have 30% schools + 10% libs + 10+ dspecs/acre as attacker but as u can guess that doesn't make you rly strong or a threat that u are supposed to be. With such build most likely you will get fb-ed and what will happen: you wont have peasants or off and basically you will just exist and suffering loses on attacks(even as undead). Rebuilding the schools just before the war or when war starts wont help much since you must have a lot def and not so much off to protect your sci. Unfortunately I've seen it in my KD and looked like that: undead/tact with 1500 bpa and 80-90 opa when war starts... I have to mention something: as heavy attacker(undead/orc) I dont play with less than 100 opa even if I have to play with 1k dspec. By mid-late age I have over 110 opa but my sci sucks.

As about when to build libs - i usually build 5-6% when I have 600+ bpa and addition 1% for every 100-150 bpa.

[smercjd]

I agree with Bo To about when to build Libs. I start at 700+bpa and +1%/100bpa. Also...if you feel that you don't want to sac too much into libraries -- 5% is a good number to have anytime you've gone beyond 700bpa. Even if you have 2000bpa, 5% is still very helpful. If you have a LOT of sci, then no matter what, you SHOULD sacrifice at least 5% for libs (opinion). Even for attacker who will likely have a decent amount of gains sci. I say 5% because it increases your sci bonuses by about 10%. Additionally, you should almost never go beyond 25% (opinion). Though I feel that way about any non-capacity based building. TMs would more typically run libs than attackers because they get advantage from more than what an attacker gets.

Lastly, Undeads only have 6 sci to worry about, so having higher bpa with undead and the lowered need for farms/hospitals allow them more room to run libraries.

[Rigid]

i guess the main issue is when those libraries are very usefull... as of my experience being a heavy attacker undead...being chained in war is good...what makes it good?look at you science it will shoot up like crazy..and if you focuses on gains it will give you boost on acre gains and sustain with the land exchanges just in and out... lets go to the topic libraries can be tweaked in builds if being chained go try 40% rax and 40% gs with 20% libraries then your a headache to your opponents... this is based IMO and experiences...im not really good on numbers but someone can support or maybe calculate this...

[Cry0]

1.5k undead with a generic HA build.

Without libraries:

Undead/Non-Sage @ 1.5k a. 74% draft, 5.8ppa, 1.5ospa, 7dspa, 11.8epa (141.2opa/58.2dpa) p(136.93 opa/31.63) 2tpa (3.22), 2wpa (3.68)
Sci: 1000 bpa (75|200|300|0|200|75|150) / effect (12.1|14.1|11.3|0|19.8|52|73.5)
Build: 80.4% BE homes 15%, banks 6%, tg 20%, rax 15%, gs 15%, guilds 8%, towers 9%, stable 12%,
Econ: Inc: 32k gc Wages: -30k gc Sci: -0k gc Runes:+2k runes Food: 0 bushels
SCIENCE (1000 bpa)
Alchemy: +12.12%
Building: +14.14%
Population: +11.26%
Food: +0%
Gains: +19.8%
Thievery: +51.96%
Magic: +73.48%


With 5% libraries

Undead/Non-Sage @ 1.5k a. 74% draft, 5.9ppa, 1.5ospa, 7dspa, 11.9epa (140.7opa/58.5dpa) p(136.87 opa/31.63) 2tpa (3.33), 2wpa (3.83)
Sci: 1000 bpa (75|200|300|0|200|75|150) / effect (13.3|15.5|12.3|0|21.7|56.9|80.5)(5% libs)
Build: 81.3% BE homes 14%, banks 6%, tg 19%, rax 14%, gs 14%, guilds 8%, towers 9%, libs 5%, stable 11%,
Econ: Inc: 32k gc Wages: -31k gc Sci: -0k gc Runes:+2k runes Food: 0 bushels

SCIENCE (1000 bpa)
Alchemy: +13.28%
Building: +15.49%
Population: +12.33%
Food: +0%
Gains: +21.68%
Thievery: +56.9%
Magic: +80.47%


That is a 1000 BPA attacker which is pretty high for most.

So 450 BPA
w/o libraries:
Short:
Undead/Non-Sage @ 1.5k a. 74% draft, 5.6ppa, 1.5ospa, 7dspa, 11.1epa (133.3opa/56.7dpa) p(129.15 opa/31.63) 2tpa (2.69), 2wpa (3.06)
Sci: 450 bpa (50|75|150|0|100|20|55) / effect (9.9|8.7|8|0|14|26.8|44.5)
Build: 75.7% BE homes 15%, banks 6%, tg 20%, rax 15%, gs 15%, guilds 8%, towers 9%, stable 12%,
Econ: Inc: 30k gc Wages: -29k gc Sci: -0k gc Runes:+2k runes Food: 0 bushels

SCIENCE (450 bpa)
Alchemy: +9.9%
Building: +8.66%
Population: +7.96%
Food: +0%
Gains: +14%
Thievery: +26.83%
Magic: +44.5%


w/ 5% libraries
Short:
Undead/Non-Sage @ 1.5k a. 74% draft, 5.6ppa, 1.5ospa, 7dspa, 11.2epa (132.2opa/56.8dpa) p(128.46 opa/31.63) 2tpa (2.74), 2wpa (3.15)
Sci: 450 bpa (50|75|150|0|100|20|55) / effect (10.8|9.5|8.7|0|15.3|29.4|48.7)(5% libs)
Build: 76.1% BE homes 14%, banks 6%, tg 19%, rax 14%, gs 14%, guilds 8%, towers 9%, libs 5%, stable 11%,
Econ: Inc: 30k gc Wages: -29k gc Sci: -0k gc Runes:+2k runes Food: 0 bushels

SCIENCE (450 bpa)
Alchemy: +10.84%
Building: +9.48%
Population: +8.72%
Food: +0%
Gains: +15.33%
Thievery: +29.38%
Magic: +48.72%

As for schools.. you build schools if you are specifically science pumping which I would doubt many KD besides top 5 growth KD do or you build schools if you are going to be sitting in normal and want to protect science.

[Anatak1989]

Ok, thanks for all the input! For some reason, I never thought of something as simple as just having 5% libraries haha. I'll have to do that next age.