What would it take?

[Verminator]

On Genesis people were too busy experimenting and goofing around, I honestly think there are very few highly experienced players anymore that would want to spend the time teaching while on a Genesis-style server.

[faegan]

Even though I'm not in a ghetto (no Elit!) here's my viewpoint:

What I get from some of the previous comments are the following issues:
1. we try to explore up but we get farmed;
2. we have difficulties getting cfs;
3. we are afraid of top kds so we won't even try;
4. we don't like to play for 5th-10th place;
5. we don't want to do major chart shaping (see 1.);

As mentioned before, when you have a dedicated kingdom of 25 players, there's always options to compete in the top charts. But it takes careful preparations at EoA and freeze time. Warring kingdoms trying to whore could always go for advice to more experienced players on IRC. I'm quite sure some of the most knowledgable players would be willing to give you some pointers. All you need to do is ask.

So let's address the issues above then.
Issue #1 relates to the comments about all the crazy and boring CFs the top kingdoms have. The only reason why those CFs are there is because none of the top kingdoms is going to let another kingdom put up a cow without a CF. Simply put: we'll not allow you to create a tool that can destroy us and have zero time to prepare. So those top kingdom CFs are mutually beneficial; both kingdoms will have nothing to fear and can explore up. For the How-2, please look at the threads created by Zauper and Crazy Pete in Strategy section.

Issue #2 can be a real pain. Without CFs, you'll have a very hard time. Even though the top kingdoms can drive a hard bargain, you should be able to settle things. Communication is key; talk to the right people on IRC and always remember: the top kingdoms NEED the CFs to be safe.

Issue #3 is simple: grow a pair of balls

Issue #4 can be an age-killer. For PyroManiaCs age 61 was over around YR4. There was very slim chance to win a crown and it required BB/AMA to majorly screw up. You need to stay focussed on just improving yourself and your kingdom. We practiced homespump a few times last age, simply because we had never done it before. We now have the concept down and comfortably use it when we get the chance.

Issue #5 is the farmout option. This is most likely to happen when kingdoms decide they have nothing left to play for and then just roll over and farm out to whoever comes first. Thing is: the kingdoms that want the acres still have to take them....they may have something to offer in return but if they try to take them by force, always remember that you have nothing left to play for and they need it for the #1/2/3 spot. It only takes a few hits on a cow to negate WEEKS of preparation. Just look at what Remote did 2 ages ago.

Those were my 2 cents.

P.S. Someone said something about landdrops costing you honor etc...then you made a ****ty deal. The harsh lesson you needed to learn is that you need to come to PyroManiaCs instead of BB/AMA/CR and we'll anon all our hits so you won't lose a single point of honor.

[Sheister]

to me Palem, I think shorter ages is the big thing. With long ages, is you screw up, you can't try again for some time. shorter ages would probably do more for this.

[Syele]

hmmm. It just never appealed to me in the slightest.

I'm poor so maybe I'd try it if I got paid for it. haha.

Seriously though, I always liked that utopia has multiple ways to success. Is there some shortage of whoring KDs?

[Maximouse]

What it would take for most KD's is a change in additude and some knowledge.

The change in additude is basicly what Faegan listed as point 3. And ofcourse stop with the victim complex.

Knowledge on the different strategies needed to keep yourself from becomming a farm on higher size can be found quite easy.

Homespump:
Explained it to CJ even though they are 1 of our key opponents.
Putting up cows:
See the strategy boards.
How to get CF's:
Explained it to I think 10+ KD's so far this age. Atleast 20 KD's 2 ages ago when we whored. Same KD's CR was hitting for acres. Bad strategy perhaps for CR since I limit our safe targets group, but I rather see more then less competition.

Any other questions? Make an effort. Go on irc, ask around.

[American Badass]

Offense is the best defense. If you have provinces that can threaten others at oop you will be left alone and can force CFS. So many times we still see provinces on low off, high def and explored acres.

Whoring is just like warring, but it is all age.

[StratOcastle]

Also comes down to the language players want to hear. You can imagine, in some war kingdoms the pursuit of exploration might be a tough sell. I never get this madness. You can see some war kingdoms getting accidentally big by winning. It's because of this winning I ride war kingdoms about setup.
They don't need a war build to win. They're good enough to switch out personality and races to war with alternative builds with growth potential. By the same token, any player could look at BB last age and the 16 orcs and realize they're standing in their own way.
The argument you can't find war means you can't find war to win. Again, fair argument. But, if you want exploring war just be a diplomacy vegetable. Fear of failure is a terrible thing in a game. I think some brilliant people are in top kingdoms. I think a lot of players sell themselves short.
Did you know that every numerically based strategy I see in Strategy forum is lost on me? I honestly can only perceive the generalities. That's how I play. Now if I can't see the numbers I don't get why the people that can are afraid to explore.

[skoyl12]

Infinate explore pool and decrease exploring costs. Tops kds will still win by a big margin but smaller kds will get the chance to have provinces above 3k-4k acres. That way they'll see how economy and pumping works at that sizes and then you can start implementing barriers again.

[Zauper]

If you were asking me to design a game system whereby warkds / non current top kds could be competitive in the hunt for the land crown, palem, i'd look for the following:
1) Make attacking 1x/day competitive with attacking 2-3x/day. (raise base attackspeed; change +/- hours to not be bad; add a building that buffs gains)
2) Remove DBE. It's not logical for noobs, and synergizes well with item 1.
3) Remove mills; remove or rework arms, schools, libs
4) Potentially remove the explore pool(?); though the above probably works.
5) Remove the stupid uncapped science and science draft system. Cap the bonus and make it purchasable.

If you combine that with forcing some sort of diplo/mentality shift on the top kds (pre-agreed deal between them and others, potentially agreeing that it can be enforceable by bishop?) to remove duration CFs, arranged wars, etc from the game -- so that there are three states:
not currently attacking that kingdom, currently attacking that kingdom, and NAP'd with that kingdom. (enforced by the game, unbreakable).

These changes combine to do a few things --
1) They make sustained activity less important for being competitive. This is generally a good thing for the game, since it makes it more viable as a browser/FB-like game, and doesn't require people to hit at awkward times consistently.
2) They remove the consistent advantage for starting larger (and the disadvantage for warring). If you have more acres, you can get more science points than anyone else (and in the current system, can afford to have more peasants/acre than anyone else since you just need to be safe vs ghettos), and those science points translate into strength. This makes the game more dyanmic
3) It removes the diplo cluster**** that makes entering the top difficult.

[Nightmare_]

If you were asking me to design a game system whereby warkds / non current top kds could be competitive in the hunt for the land crown, palem, i'd look for the following:
1) Make attacking 1x/day competitive with attacking 2-3x/day. (raise base attackspeed; change +/- hours to not be bad; add a building that buffs gains)
2) Remove DBE. It's not logical for noobs, and synergizes well with item 1.
3) Remove mills; remove or rework arms, schools, libs
4) Potentially remove the explore pool(?); though the above probably works.
5) Remove the stupid uncapped science and science draft system. Cap the bonus and make it purchasable.

If you combine that with forcing some sort of diplo/mentality shift on the top kds (pre-agreed deal between them and others, potentially agreeing that it can be enforceable by bishop?) to remove duration CFs, arranged wars, etc from the game -- so that there are three states:
not currently attacking that kingdom, currently attacking that kingdom, and NAP'd with that kingdom. (enforced by the game, unbreakable).

These changes combine to do a few things --
1) They make sustained activity less important for being competitive. This is generally a good thing for the game, since it makes it more viable as a browser/FB-like game, and doesn't require people to hit at awkward times consistently.
2) They remove the consistent advantage for starting larger (and the disadvantage for warring). If you have more acres, you can get more science points than anyone else (and in the current system, can afford to have more peasants/acre than anyone else since you just need to be safe vs ghettos), and those science points translate into strength. This makes the game more dyanmic
3) It removes the diplo cluster**** that makes entering the top difficult.

+1

I support this

[Zauper]

Oh, the other thing I forgot to mention is shifting the game back to land-based gains.

Though honestly, if you're successful with the diplo shift piece (i.e. you can't make any term CFs), it would be less important because there would be much much much less room to manipulate nw to make hits.

[Nightmare_]

Oh, the other thing I forgot to mention is shifting the game back to land-based gains.

Though honestly, if you're successful with the diplo shift piece (i.e. you can't make any term CFs), it would be less important because there would be much much much less room to manipulate nw to make hits.

One of the problems with land-based gains before was having superpumped provs with very high science. I think capping science and instituting land-based gains would go hand-in-hand.

[goodz]

The removal of the honor and war win charts.

The removal of honor from the game

The removal of the #/# war wins/wars from the kd page.

[StratOcastle]

Probably goodz is right.
When I explained I was doing my own homepump in a kingdom last age there was zero interest. I know you tops give advice, but I like to explode something to see how it works. It exploded.
Actually a lot of this is generational to my way of thinking. People know how to comply but few know how to key off teamwork in an instinctive way. You watch a basketball game and see a blind pass behind the back that turns into an easy layup. In this game you'd simply have a lot of broken noses.
It's not that guys/gals are dim, they just haven't exposed themselves to faith in one another. As in the basketball analogy, I'm watching to bail you out. It's basically caring about the whole with a bias to do what orders say to do.

This game appeals to numerical control. It attracts a disproportionate number of people who need the numbers to jibe and they gravitate to known safety. It's everywhere you look. Wars decided before they're fought, and part of the reason is all have perscibed to the same known quantities. It's why war kingdoms can't breech. The best numerically driven kingdoms always beat those that aren't aware of a formula they never bothered to investigate. And they won't because it's an unknown quantity. It's clear to me which kingdoms have creative thought and they are the most dangerous. Yes they do numbers, but they approach from both weapons above the game and creative bias to what works.

[goodz]

Probably goodz is right.
When I explained I was doing my own homepump in a kingdom last age there was zero interest. I know you tops give advice, but I like to explode something to see how it works. It exploded.
Actually a lot of this is generational to my way of thinking. People know how to comply but few know how to key off teamwork in an instinctive way. You watch a basketball game and see a blind pass behind the back that turns into an easy layup. In this game you'd simply have a lot of broken noses.
It's not that guys/gals are dim, they just haven't exposed themselves to faith in one another. As in the basketball analogy, I'm watching to bail you out. It's basically caring about the whole with a bias to do what orders say to do.

This game appeals to numerical control. It attracts a disproportionate number of people who need the numbers to jibe and they gravitate to known safety. It's everywhere you look. Wars decided before they're fought, and part of the reason is all have perscibed to the same known quantities. It's why war kingdoms can't breech. The best numerically driven kingdoms always beat those that aren't aware of a formula they never bothered to investigate. And they won't because it's an unknown quantity. It's clear to me which kingdoms have creative thought and they are the most dangerous. Yes they do numbers, but they approach from both weapons above the game and creative bias to what works.

plus a guy makes a no look pass and you praise him, but how about the guy who is right where he is supposed to be.