Human/Cleric.. convince me it's bad please

[TommyB]

So I'm wondering why humans are considered bad. Sure it's not as viable as last age to run a 100% elite army and they can't turtle as well. Still on paper their numbers aren't that bad with 6.6 elite and +5% pop. Other turtle option would be elf I guess.

Is it gonna be viable to play a human/cleric this age or why not?

[Youlose]

I'm guessing this is for a warring based on your 6.6 elite offense comment.

1. Turtling is bad. If you turtle, it just means someone else is getting chained. It also means you aren't utilizing all your offense, which as an attacker is important. It also means you're losing way more stuff to meteors.
2. Cleric doesn't save you from chains, instead of losing all those dudes to attacks, you will lose them to desertions.
3. There are better sustain-attacker options available other than humans, such as undead tactician. The only benefit to a human/cleric in that comparison is that you'll come into a war with slightly higher offense (and ToG before your peasants burn, which shouldn't take long).

[TommyB]

1. Turtling is bad. If you turtle, it just means someone else is getting chained. It also means you aren't utilizing all your offense, which as an attacker is important. It also means you're losing way more stuff to meteors.

Depends IMO. It can be useful to have a big prov that can ToG for dragons especially if you can still make safe hits. It's not always an option but it can be.

2. Cleric doesn't save you from chains, instead of losing all those dudes to attacks, you will lose them to desertions.

But it will make the chain take longer because the defense doesn't vaporize as fast compared to non-cleric.

3. There are better sustain-attacker options available other than humans, such as undead tactician. The only benefit to a human/cleric in that comparison is that you'll come into a war with slightly higher offense (and ToG before your peasants burn, which shouldn't take long).

I'm guessing this is mostly about how hard it is to retrain human elites? That's true and a valid concern for playing human, it's why I suggested cleric to make them last as long as possible. On the other hand I assume that human will enter into war with 100% elite offense while undead won't reach much higher than 50/50 ratio. So it should take some time for their conversion and lower losses to overtake the humans offense.

About peasants burning, that's an obvious strat to use against someone with ToG, the only counter I can think of is to put up some resistance (wpa) and kidnap them back once they're done fireballing. On the other hand, undead doesn't even get the kidnap option so he'd recover much slower after being FB'd.

[StratOcastle]

I never look that hard at the numbers. To me it looks like you get a dwarf elite and extra population and the war bonus thing. I know guys love splitting hairs for nw but if your in the middle of playing the thing it's fine, huh.

In the Virtual Kingdom I put humans on war hero because they can potentially war spoil, accelerate train, accelerate build BB. I have them attacking in concert with undead. And this chaining business I always hear about; there's a whole kingdoms worth of other problems to deal with.

But back to human cleric. With pop & ME bonus, near ability to run full elites, FoK, spell duration bonus & PF you offer a somewhat reliable means to work admirably among any other heavy attacker.

Rant On:
I don't believe in cores. The reason isn't because I don't think some work, it's the refusal to simply use what works. If you sprinkle humans in lower numbers you aren't risking the entire kingdom to nw bullying. How many times has someone said something didn't work and we see top kingdoms adopt it? Same with you can't run humans alone in the ghetto? My queen 2 ages ago was doing fine with human soloing in the ghetto.

Some players are hardwired to the math, but I travel and I see the math is only as good as the player. Many are hidden in robotic waves so their perception is based in a communal shuffle through an irc neverland of nw and offense declaration.
Then it's just one guy, your leader really: When I use to play Axis & Allies it was always easiest to be one guy vs a team because I could coordinate my armies seamlessly. This isn't teamwork.

So then I also play D&D and we work hard at working together. The characters are too sophisticated for one player to understand the nuances of every build(like human cleric). We must play as a team with our deep, individual understanding of our capabilities. We rock like a landslide.

Maybe the secret is we have over 30 years experience as a group. It's a journey, but becoming a great team is far and away the most reliable method of success in history. You're blinded here because individuals rule and established that rule through the ages. The culture is proven in isolation, but not to the open eyes. You are not pawns, you are players.

I also played football and the ball carrier is not the team. The fundamentals of teamwork were impressed upon me at an early age; not just in doing my job but taking initiative when the play broke down. This is what the self centered call greed. Think about it.
Rant Off.

[Nightmare_]

Few things that you should consider as human/cleric:

1. Ops vulnerability - you have no innate defense against mages or thieves in the way that orc, avian, elf, faery have. Elf is tankier and has NM with better wpa.
2. No hospitals saves a lot of buildings, but plague will be a problem for you this age. Will you be nbing your tog mana away? Or will you include hospitals anyway, and further decrease human's cramped build space?
3. Extended hostiles - how will you fare in extended hostiles trading land with undead kds? You cant use your *1.1 ome in this case either.
4. How do you expect to play it? Will you be able to utilize its turtle def effectively?

Some of these can be mitigated by playing tactician or war hero. Overall human is not bad at all but needs work to shine

[TommyB]

Thanks! Some very good points I'll have to consider.

One question:

Some of these can be mitigated by playing tactician or war hero. Overall human is not bad at all but needs work to shine

Which one does war hero migitate? The plague thing? But then I'd have to run lots of hosps anyway so it seem redundant. Or does it migitate one of the other points as well?

[Bishop]

So I'm wondering why humans are considered bad.

Who says they are bad? Them and dwarf were top 2 last age and not a lot has changed this age.

[Nightmare_]

Thanks! Some very good points I'll have to consider.

One question:



Which one does war hero migitate? The plague thing? But then I'd have to run lots of hosps anyway so it seem redundant. Or does it migitate one of the other points as well?

War hero is really an amalgam of everything. Even if you run hosp as cleric, youre still not plague immune and may have to spend mana nbing, or wait for that 20% cure to go your way :p it also has defense against sapphire or ruby blitz, which i consider quite substantial when it comes to strangling a turtled econ race. The honor bonus is nice as well, as an added perk. Even at baron its about 2/4/4/6/6 pop alch/ome tpa/wpa bonus extra than what other personalities have. This is compounded on human population bonus for an extra 0.52 ppa or so. War spoils and -train time can be used to your advantage in select situations.

In short, 1. 2. and 4. :p however, definitely still has holes in ops protection especially due to spec def. you could always go full elite but dpa will take a dive and wages will soar

[citadela01]

Human isnt bad at all.
I guess personality choice depends on what kind of kd you will be playing in.
If you are going to spend better part of age in war than cleric is hands down best personality for any non ud attacker imo.

[TommyB]

Who says they are bad? Them and dwarf were top 2 last age and not a lot has changed this age.

Not sure who started it but the overwhelming majority seems to think that Undead are the new thing and human/dwarf hardly get picked at all. Maybe I should think about WH after all simply because every second attacker is gonna be an undead. :p

[Bishop]

Not sure who started it but the overwhelming majority seems to think that Undead are the new thing and human/dwarf hardly get picked at all. Maybe I should think about WH after all simply because every second attacker is gonna be an undead. :p

Undeads are always popular, no matter how good or ba they actually are. Hunan is still very strong

[crease]

Undeads are always popular, no matter how good or ba they actually are. Hunan is still very strong

This, but dont pick cleric. Tactician provides some defensive bonuses that human is lacking so it can put out a reasonable tpa and TD's and still have some defence against rogues. It also offers similar landsaving with - attack time compared to - losses, plus you will want to run hosps to remove plague so you can use more mana on togging.

My 2 cents.

[Shockwave]

WTs. The answer to surviving is WTs.