Q for Emeriti - Is it cool to raze into EoW if you want a CF

[jdorje]

Since when is exploring from 22*** to 32*** in eowcf 50%+ and why would we not be allowed to do it? Or anyine else for that matter?
Furthermore, even if we would have gotten the land back, we would have lost a lot of time.
Also, declining that offer was more of a principle thing. Do you really want this to happen to you in the future? By allowing this crap you set a precedent for the future.

You explored 5 provinces by 50-100%, protector. Why would you make a disingenuous argument about those numbers? I can see why you would decline their cf offer though, as they were close to giving button and might have (or might still) given you another farmwar. We did the same against Chrystal last age. The possibility of gaining 20k in a min time war far outweighs the damage done by a ghetto limited to one hit a day.

As I see it we were probably going to decline BB's mediocre cf offer, and would have fought them. The war would (IMO) have been 50-50, with us having more acres/troops and them having a better spread and cleric bonus. After the razing idiocy, we knew we couldn't push any sort of advantage and took a cf offer that was still quite advantageous for BB (again IMO). BB's original offer was yr2, which would have let them use more pool than us and would have put us at worse than 50-50 odds; the offer they finally made was yr4 which is probably back to 50-50.

Everyone will agree postwar is overpowered, but I don't think hitting into it unprovoked is the answer. In most cases you have a notice deal with kingdoms in range of you - which is basically necessary, otherwise anyone leaving postwar can destroy you since they not only can be more pumped but can completely control the timing of the fight. I don't have a good answer for this, as it's part of the overall problems with the current mechanics that force fights to occur at superpump levels all the time where a small difference in the timing or pump level of the fight often determines the winner. One thing I would suggest though is that notice should be allowed into/from postwar in future CF clauses, as the war winning kingdom should still have the advantage even if they "only" have 4 days to prep instead of 6-7. Yes, this is off topic.

[flogger]

The issue with collective action in uto is that it needs a broad support base. BB didn't act when kds were hitting into active, real wars. I'd say that's much worse than getting hit in EOW (at least, I'd rather get hit into EOW than have a war become a 2v1). So it's hard to say why they would expect other kds to help them in this situation - not to say that I think it's appropriate to hit into EOW.

People rarely act to help others outside of their own self interest, though.

Is there some big epidemic of double hostling in the top im not aware of? There hasnt been in years. Generally speaking when there has been, we have usually been the mediator.

And usually there is group action when enough people fall on the same side of the issue. The only
People ive even heard of being upset with eow exploring is from emeriti. Divinity explored in war, we explored out
Of war to match them, we warred and we lost. Did we say anything other than good game?

[flogger]

You explored 5 provinces by 50-100%, protector. Why would you make a disingenuous argument about those numbers? I can see why you would decline their cf offer though, as they were close to giving button and might have (or might still) given you another farmwar. We did the same against Chrystal last age. The possibility of gaining 20k in a min time war far outweighs the damage done by a ghetto limited to one hit a day.

As I see it we were probably going to decline BB's mediocre cf offer, and would have fought them. The war would (IMO) have been 50-50, with us having more acres/troops and them having a better spread and cleric bonus. After the razing idiocy, we knew we couldn't push any sort of advantage and took a cf offer that was still quite advantageous for BB (again IMO). BB's original offer was yr2, which would have let them use more pool than us and would have put us at worse than 50-50 odds; the offer they finally made was yr4 which is probably back to 50-50.

Everyone will agree postwar is overpowered, but I don't think hitting into it unprovoked is the answer. In most cases you have a notice deal with kingdoms in range of you - which is basically necessary, otherwise anyone leaving postwar can destroy you since they not only can be more pumped but can completely control the timing of the fight. I don't have a good answer for this, as it's part of the overall problems with the current mechanics that force fights to occur at superpump levels all the time where a small difference in the timing or pump level of the fight often determines the winner. One thing I would suggest though is that notice should be allowed into/from postwar in future CF clauses, as the war winning kingdom should still have the advantage even if they "only" have 4 days to prep instead of 6-7. Yes, this is off topic.

There is no one but you claiming eow cf is overpowered. The increased draft rate in fortified is imbalanced. At the top level, the kingdoms coming out of war are the ones getting vultured, not the other way around. Case in point, had we fought you would have waved us, not the other way around.

If we dont explore, you force your year 10 cf on us and you win the age. So i agree with your assessment, we wanted yr2, you wanted yr10.... So it was clear we were going to fight (not as leshrak said we were going to have a cf the next day), therefore the razing essentially enables you to avoid our 50/50 war, and instead you get to Bottomfeed on ghettos for 4 weeks and get some science so you can be 80/20 by yr4

[Zauper]

Fort is clearly stronger than eow. EOW was better until the most recent set of buffs to fort.

I would never agree to a deal that lets you notice in.

And uh, Flogger, I was thinking about the SWEA age. Two years ago?. Epidemic of waves into conflict.

[flogger]

Fort is clearly stronger than eow. EOW was better until the most recent set of buffs to fort.

I would never agree to a deal that lets you notice in.

And uh, Flogger, I was thinking about the SWEA age. Two years ago?. Epidemic of waves into conflict.

Who was waving who into conflict?

[flogger]

Also a little lol to call a yr2 cf a mediocre cf offer when yours is Yr10 in yr0 as sages vs non sages. We knew there was no cf to be had at the first line. The #1 and #2 kingdoms have to fight fairly often, otherwise the top two kingdoms end up battling over who farms who and the whole rest of the server end up dodging and doing whatever they can to survive. Sitting at 1/2/3 cfd at the top and not fighting is the way things were in absaloms time. That cant happen anymore when the game is so small

[jdorje]

There is no one but you claiming eow cf is overpowered. The increased draft rate in fortified is imbalanced. At the top level, the kingdoms coming out of war are the ones getting vultured, not the other way around. Case in point, had we fought you would have waved us, not the other way around.

If we dont explore, you force your year 10 cf on us and you win the age. So i agree with your assessment, we wanted yr2, you wanted yr10.... So it was clear we were going to fight (not as leshrak said we were going to have a cf the next day), therefore the razing essentially enables you to avoid our 50/50 war, and instead you get to Bottomfeed on ghettos for 4 weeks and get some science so you can be 80/20 by yr4

Postwar is overpowered because you can run 5 dpa and nobody will hit you. You absolutely cannot do that in fortified. Further, you can choose to leave it at any time, so you can hit out when you want but nobody can choose when to hit in. When you do leave, you have complete control over your stance and there's no way to even find out what that stance is in advance; this gives a further advantage in any fort-off.

Fortified does give a drafting bonus and marginally cheaper troops. Except that in postwar you have a free 3 dspa and usually tons of build credits.

You obviously don't think cleric has no chance against sage in year 4, or you wouldn't have picked it. I have no idea why leshrak offered year 10 though; I guess he just wanted something to work down from.

Finally, nobody said we were upset with exploring in postwar, to my knowledge. That would be silly on our part. Releasing all your troops and emptying pool to pump on 0% draft for 2 days was the smart move for you.

[flogger]

Yet you said yourself you would have more troops than us, so what is the advantage of being fat in end of war? Being fat sounds bad

We only released our ospecs, something every top kingdom does the first week of the age. We had no defense because it was an OOP war. Thats why the game gives you time to recover. We have 6x the defense our opponent ended up with. Dont think that people were razing them in order to get a ceasefire.

we picked cleric because we planned on being small and fighting ghettos as we wanted an off age. We won a war and found ourselves #2. We didnt pick cleric to win 1/2 fights in year 4. The fact sage is the best whoring personality is not something we do not know

[Palem]

let me guess, restraining order?

Touring, generally being busy.

out with the T-bone, in with the queen of hearts!

Fixed that for you



And to add to the discussion, I don't feel bad for BB. You were offered a deal that you would benefit from and you turned it down. Sucks that you got razed OOW, but that's utopia for you.

[flogger]

What deal benefitted us palem? Gaining 300 acres in exhange for giving sages 3 weeks to pump science is not a benefit

[Band of Horses]

Postwar is overpowered because you can run 5 dpa and nobody will hit you. You absolutely cannot do that in fortified. Further, you can choose to leave it at any time, so you can hit out when you want but nobody can choose when to hit in. When you do leave, you have complete control over your stance and there's no way to even find out what that stance is in advance; this gives a further advantage in any fort-off.

Fortified does give a drafting bonus and marginally cheaper troops. Except that in postwar you have a free 3 dspa and usually tons of build credits.

You obviously don't think cleric has no chance against sage in year 4, or you wouldn't have picked it. I have no idea why leshrak offered year 10 though; I guess he just wanted something to work down from.

Finally, nobody said we were upset with exploring in postwar, to my knowledge. That would be silly on our part. Releasing all your troops and emptying pool to pump on 0% draft for 2 days was the smart move for you.

Didn't you run <5 dspa last age in normal stance while you pumped and baited CP in to gift you a crown? I seem to remember 225k def on 10-12k acres and 35% banks because you had so many peasants you didn't need homes thanks to such low draft.

[SnirpsneR]

Touring, generally being busy.



Fixed that for you



And to add to the discussion, I don't feel bad for BB. You were offered a deal that you would benefit from and you turned it down. Sucks that you got razed OOW, but that's utopia for you.

Yes cuz offering a deal and then razing 3h later is a real offer. Prot was sleeping. And our steward didn't wake him cuz of eow. So prot finally would sleep proper

[Palem]

What deal benefitted us palem? Gaining 300 acres in exhange for giving sages 3 weeks to pump science is not a benefit

This one:

I offered the acres we razed back + bonus acres + gold but was turned down

You were already razed and you failed to make the best of the situation. By the sounds of it you were more interested in punishing than trying to benefit from the situation, so don't complain that you can't both punish and be in shape to war Emeriti. You chose your path, go with it.

[flogger]

palem, in your esteemed history of illogical utopian takes, this one might take the cake

[Palem]

Yea you're right. You guys totally made the right decision. That's why this thread exists right? To rub it in Emeriti's noses how bad you pulled one over on them?

*rolls eyes*