Proposal to end he Awar

[Sheister]

1. Prior acts for sure taint people for good or for bad, that should seem simple enough. A prior recent act clearly makes more of a difference. I'm not here to discuss what happened years ago. The now is that we have a so called ethical kd (bb) siding with a non ethical kd (pyro) who were recently caught in the act. So we can scrap the morality on that front.

OK this is better. What you are describing is a process called "attenuation" that is the more distant something is, the less weight it may be given. You come down clearly on the side that prior acts taint and taint permanently (which seems to argue counter to your concept of attenuation, so I have no idea how your logically work that out, but OK). You were doing alright until the last sentence where you just suddenly whip out an unsupported conclusory statement that contradicts a centerpiece of your own argument. No, we can't scrap morality! Its at the center of what you are trying to argue! If morality is immaterial, then the character of pyro has no bearing! ACK! Talk about throwing out the baby with the bathwater! Simply terrible! Go back and revise this again. But chin up! This is a MUCH better effort this time.

2. Points are simple. Emeriti does something serious but small, offers reparations and benefits which seem to put BB at a big advantage. Gold, fake hostile, additional acres...you name it, I realy dont see what more calculations are needed. Instead we have the response which is completely disproportionate. I think some of your friends even admit to this. They just say it deserves a disproportionate response for one reason or another. Emeriti deserves to be beat up. They deserve have there CF broken with BB and then GB'd. There is no hurricane here and one does not need to be Shakespeare. Just simple logic.

If it is serious, then it can't be small. Don't self contradict. Perhaps better to say, "Emeriti transgressed, but in a minor way". This is also a conclusory statement as to magnitude which is sent to mask as fact. It is simply unsupported opinion as to magnitude. Poor lead-off choice. You then follow it up with another unsupported conclusory statement which merely parrot's ASF's arguments. Another conclusory statement as to magnitude of response. An assumption regarding the stance of unnamed posters. A contradictory statement, it can't be disproportionate if its deserved.

Sadly, its not simple logic. There is no logic here yet..... but you ARE getting a little better..... Keep trying!

[DoOrDie]

My point is, AGAIN, that you never actually present facts, just your opinion and conclusory statements which you proffer as FACT. You do not have facts, you have opinions.



As I outlined to you there are multiple levels of damages here. Lets tally them up shall we? There is the land, which I believe was 750 acres.

Right there, you try to play the attorney and your FIRST assumption is wrong: the first razes were 380 acres, a whole ~1.3% of BB's land at that time (we negotiated right after the initial razes). Then you continue with making calculation based on more fictionnal assumptions.

So let's make it clear, the facts are:

1) We razed 380 acres.
2) We proposed acres, acres compensation, gold, releasing wizards and cover for a fake hostile.
3) It was declined and protector asked me a farmwar.
4) I told him I wouldn't give him a farmwar but that if my offers werent good enough, to come one that he would find more reasonnable and that we would accept it.
5) He told me it wasn't about the reparations, it was about the "principle" (right after asking for a farmwar )
6) If BB wanted any reparation, my kingdom had #1 province (2800 acres) and two other big provinces (2x2500 acres) and my kingdom was on ~23k acres (top 4) while BB's biggest were 2200 acres and were on ~32k acres. If BB wanted reparations, there was A LOT of ways to make sure they could get them, they just werent interested in that.

So please, just stop posting, you're as much an embarassment to lawyers than you're an embarassement to reporters.

[AquaSeaFoam]

Shortly after it happened there was an offer for the 2-3 retired abs players to take themselves out instead of making us waste the 24 hours (and unlimited ops) to do it ourselves. This was rejected by ASF. We then did diplo with Zauper a few days later and the same offer was made and their council rejected the offer.

We weren't going to settle for anything less than that, and I guess they greatly misjudged how upset we are.

Why do you keep lying? That wasn't your only demand nor was it rejected by me. I said something about that i don't control their kingdom but that I could talk to them about it. In the end, the kingdom did take themselves out and agreed to your acre caps and gave you 2.8x the land back that they razed.

What you wanted was:
[23:48:46] <flogger> all I want is an apology, an admission of what happenned, and I want the punishment being they don't go for the crown
[23:48:53] <flogger> this is the heart of our diplomacy
[23:49:13] <flogger> I want to quit, leave our kd to our brand new monarch to learn, fight, and probably lose
[23:49:37] <flogger> and leave this age to like WSK, coss, our new nub without me and whoever else wants to crown

What you wanted all along was for Emeriti to not compete in the top so that they could not war you fairly and so that you could have a free crown. Later in order to get enough ally support you promised them to not go for the crown with BB. This whole thing seems to be you being terrified of Emeriti owning Bb 1v1 for the third age in a row and therefore latching on to an excuse to go nuclear over a minor incident where full reparations were offered.

[AquaSeaFoam]

ASF has been playing since age 2, as have most of their kd. I can assure you they would have no problems fielding a roster of 25 diehards next age.

I started playing YR3.

ASF gangbanged Elit/Realest and told him he was not allowed to play ever again because two of his players were Realest's girlfriends former x-loggers. The GB on elit only ended once Elit kicked Realest and Versace out of his kingdom. As far as I know, Realest has never played for growth since. (I think this was age 50?) What's more extreme, telling them to go for honor for one age or requiring them to kill off dorje and leshrak?

Sonata disbanded after they deal broke my kingdom and gangbanged us while we were on low draft. They convinced allies to join in on false pretenses but later admitted the real reason was that Rage was unbeatable 1v1 at that point and the Sonata cf was up soon. There were a lot of similarities to what you did this age and both were very dishonorable acts. After farming out Sonata's ally Playboys in war, rage was ready to go for Sonata. At this point Sonata mass deleted and admitted to tricking their allies into the gb to begin with. Sonata's allies were mad at having been tricked and then to top it off having Sonata delete mid awar.

After a number of ages, Realest announced in the forums that Sonata was back. At this time Cheese (one of Sonata's former allies) approached me and said he wanted to make a deal to gb them as repayment for what they did before if it was true that they really were back. I agreed.

They indeed were back and most of the former Sonata leaders were all there. There was one new addition though - Elit. It was the general opinion that they brought in Elit both because he's good but also as a new face to try and prevent them from being gb'd as payback. Due to Elit being there now I was on the fense about whether to go through with helping in the gb. When Versace hacked two of Rage's provinces (due to the players being former kingdom mates with her in Secrets and Versace having had the players user/pass and they were dumb enough to have never changed it) then I agreed to help follow through with the planned gb.

As part of the diplomacy talks, Elit insisted that his kingdom was not Sonata despite Realest announcing that it was. Elit insisted that even though all the main sonata leaders were there, it wasn't Sonata since he was there now. I said that if that was true, then he should kick out the Sonata leaders that were involved in hacking us -- specifically Realest and Versace. Elit did not agree to this and so no, the gb didn't end by them being kicked out. Also I actually like realest and if he wanted to play in the top again he could.

[Aranfein]

lampost if your refering to me saying its an overreaction and me being a friend... Im not in the awar so that arguement is void, I dont care for either awar sides, i got friends on both sides and i think a solution could have been made, but i also state both sides are stubborn as mules...

As for you saying Pyro is worse just because thats the only thing you remember/knows about, kinda makes your argument on that void, I could tell you why but that should be obvious for you to see.


Palem you are blind, Emeriti isnt being asked to disband as far as i know, what stops them having a fun age in the war tier? I certainly remember both Elit and Drixx being asked to stay out of top race... Emeriti did something pretty lame whether its the whole kingdom or just the leaders doesnt matter, the leaders bad decisions reflects on the kingdom (mainly the name) which you should know, seeing your vendetta against FREE... Didnt you remove yourself from your kingdom in order to FSU FREE so it wouldnt reflect bad on your KD?

BB asking Emeriti to remove Leshrak and jdorje amounts to the exact same thing... (not that i agree with this, but it is what it is). Also your reaction was ott vs FREE but that didnt make it any less right did it? So why are you saying BBs cause of action isnt right? if thats what they feel must be done, and they have offered Emeriti ways to stop it which has been declined, just as Emeriti offered BB ways which was declined.

[DoOrDie]

That's the point: they claim they did it because bour would get farmed. Fact is, nothing indicated we were going for bour

The razes started a few hours after Emeriti and BB didnt manage to make a CF deal. Like duh, why CF sages for 9 weeks?

One would wonder how a 2k acre province would be a threat to a what, 3k acre province? The 2k untrained, fresh explored and not even full pop, no resources? To a 3k dude with like what, 25k troops? Dont remember the exact numbers on troops /land.
The threat part is just a coverup to disguise the real reasons.

1) You explore big provinces in eowcf in perfect range to topfeed me and my other 2.5k provinces.
2) I know you're trying to cf Emeriti until YR2, which is the only threat you have.
3) All of you other targets beside my kingdom are on 25 players and are less juicy than my kingdom.
4) I attempt diplomacy and gets ignored by your steward and 3 of you grunts.

Also, about the "no threat", who do you think you're kidding? You are a kingdom of 25 ToGers with eowcf BR's bonus, it was a matter of around 24h to 48h before you were ready to start farming us. I'm sorry, but you add all of this together, it made absolutely no doubt in my mind you were coming for us.

What are the real reasons exactly? That the razes were all planned and all the messages I've sent priors to the razes and all the solutions I offered after were just a tissue of lies to try to cover up? You're a bunch of paranoiacs guys.


I'll end with logs of what I have said 24h after the initial razes in Emeriti's LS channel (yeah, I'm so pro a coverup that I also coverup into emeriti's leadership channel where we plan all the big mastermind conspiracy):
[03:29:29] <+bour> I've been thinking about this since yesterday and I think it was a mistake to hit into eowcf. I always tried to upheld myself to the highest possible moral standards, except when people were complete ass. BB werent ass to us or to almost anyone in the game. Sadly, all they want is either to kill us or to war us. I'll probably delete my province in a couple of hours and altough it doesnt repair the damage done to BB, I feel it's the best decision to make at this moment.

PS: The "us" in this quote is me and my kingdom.

[Sheister]

Right there, you try to play the attorney and your FIRST assumption is wrong: the first razes were 380 acres, a whole ~1.3% of BB's land at that time (we negotiated right after the initial razes). Then you continue with making calculation based on more fictionnal assumptions.

Of course there are assumptions to ballpark. 750 is a number I saw thrown around a lot.

Being wrong there is not a fatal flaw.

So let's make it clear, the facts are:

1) We razed 380 acres.
2) We proposed acres, acres compensation, gold, releasing wizards and cover for a fake hostile.
3) It was declined and protector asked me a farmwar.
4) I told him I wouldn't give him a farmwar but that if my offers werent good enough, to come one that he would find more reasonnable and that we would accept it.
5) He told me it wasn't about the reparations, it was about the "principle" (right after asking for a farmwar )
6) If BB wanted any reparation, my kingdom had #1 province (2800 acres) and two other big provinces (2x2500 acres) and my kingdom was on ~23k acres (top 4) while BB's biggest were 2200 acres and were on ~32k acres. If BB wanted reparations, there was A LOT of ways to make sure they could get them, they just werent interested in that.

AT LAST! Something to sink our teeth into! How much in each of item #2? PRotector rejected those items as inadequate and then you rejected his counter. So there WERE negotiations, not going straight to the current actions. #5 is not inconsistent. If he wanted a farmwar to make a punative impression on your that would be in keeping with the principle. #6 is inaccurate in that they did counter with what they were interested in, which falls into the category of "A LOT" but they were not interested in your specific proposals.

So you did produce facts, clarified one misconception that I had (thank you) and you also clarified for me how much you misconstrue of the situation. Also a plus. Your weak attempt at an insult aside, this post was at long last informative. Thank you for posting.

[Aranfein]

I'll end with logs of what I have said 24h after the initial razes in Emeriti's LS channel (yeah, I'm so pro a coverup that I also coverup into emeriti's leadership channel where we plan all the big mastermind conspiracy):
[03:29:29] <+bour> I've been thinking about this since yesterday and I think it was a mistake to hit into eowcf. I always tried to upheld myself to the highest possible moral standards, except when people were complete ass. BB werent ass to us or to almost anyone in the game. Sadly, all they want is either to kill us or to war us. I'll probably delete my province in a couple of hours and altough it doesnt repair the damage done to BB, I feel it's the best decision to make at this moment.

Bour, you posting that line just makes it sound like your telling Emeriti leaders that you feel it was a mistake that they made you do what you did.. like you didnt want to do the razes, but only did cause you were asked.(which kinda removes the "advicing" you to do it), which again puts Emeriti in even worse light in this situation.

(It sounds like that to me atleast but maybe not for others).

[DoOrDie]

Of course there are assumptions to ballpark. 750 is a number I saw thrown around a lot.

Being wrong there is not a fatal flaw.




AT LAST! Something to sink our teeth into! How much in each of item #2? PRotector rejected those items as inadequate and then you rejected his counter. So there WERE negotiations, not going straight to the current actions. #5 is not inconsistent. If he wanted a farmwar to make a punative impression on your that would be in keeping with the principle. #6 is inaccurate in that they did counter with what they were interested in, which falls into the category of "A LOT" but they were not interested in your specific proposals.

So you did produce facts, clarified one misconception that I had (thank you) and you also clarified for me how much you misconstrue of the situation. Also a plus. Your weak attempt at an insult aside, this post was at long last informative. Thank you for posting.

This information has been posted again and again in the past month. There was absolutely nothing new. Making long posts and trying to argue without using the real facts is just a big waste of time.

#2: No amount were discussed since BB wasnt interested.
#3-#4-#5-#6: I rejected the offer, but counter-offered that if he wanted something else than a farmwar, to come talk to me and we would find a solution. Eventually, after a few days, he counteroffered 2500 acres and size cap for all the provinces on my kingdom, which I negotiated down a bit and that the final amount was ~2100 acres + size caps.

[DoOrDie]

Bour, you posting that line just makes it sound like your telling Emeriti leaders that you feel it was a mistake that they made you do what you did.. like you didnt want to do the razes, but only did cause you were asked.(which kinda removes the "advicing" you to do it), which again puts Emeriti in even worse light in this situation.

(It sounds like that to me atleast but maybe not for others).

That's because you assume they made me do it, which is wrong.

The accusation of protector was that the messages and the offers were just a coverup for the "real reasons". This quote prove that the offers weren't a coverup, that I was REALLY trying to give reparation to BB and that I felt powerless that they were just interested in some bloodlust's crusade. Here are some more quotes (right after the razes) that proves that the offers weren't a coverup:

[00:59:51] <+bour> Well, its stupid to raze into eowcf
[01:00:07] <+bour> I was totally willing to give the acres back + bonus
[01:00:18] <+bour> but flogger went all holy paladin
[01:00:29] <+cerberusv6.66> But he just wants to fight you instead now?
[01:00:49] <+bour> he wants to kill me
[01:00:49] <+cerberusv6.66> Holy paladin? Wtf does that mean lil
[01:00:52] <+cerberusv6.66> *lol*
[01:01:06] <+bour> he said : "eowcf is sacred, now you die"
[01:01:06] <+cerberusv6.66> Gotcha.
[01:01:42] <+cerberusv6.66> Just don't give him a button. :p
[01:02:58] <+cerberusv6.66> How do you feel about this situation?
[01:03:07] <+bour> I like flogger
[01:03:36] <+cerberusv6.66> Me toom
[01:03:38] <+cerberusv6.66> *too*
[01:03:42] <+bour> and hitting into eowcf is ****ty
[01:03:57] <+bour> but well, he doesnt want to make thing right, he want a crusade*

*I never have been so right about someone just wanting a bloodbath and not wanting to settle things.

[tetley]

you don't think we talked? You don't know asf very well, do you?

LOL rofl^

[Sheister]

This information has been posted again and again in the past month. There was absolutely nothing new. Making long posts and trying to argue without using the real facts is just a big waste of time.

#2: No amount were discussed since BB wasnt interested.
#3-#4-#5-#6: I rejected the offer, but counter-offered that if he wanted something else than a farmwar, to come talk to me and we would find a solution. Eventually, after a few days, he counteroffered 2500 acres and size cap for all the provinces on my kingdom, which I negotiated down a bit and that the final amount was ~2100 acres + size caps.

Yes but this is the first plain statement of them.

OK, so that was the resolution there. Now, why does that make it unreasonable to pursue the conspirators in this action?

[Deadlift]

That's because you assume they made me do it, which is wrong.

The accusation of protector was that the messages and the offers were just a coverup for the "real reasons". This quote prove that the offers weren't a coverup, that I was REALLY trying to give reparation to BB and that I felt powerless that they were just interested in some bloodlust's crusade. Here are some more quotes (right after the razes) that proves that the offers weren't a coverup:

[00:59:51] <+bour> Well, its stupid to raze into eowcf
[01:00:07] <+bour> I was totally willing to give the acres back + bonus
[01:00:18] <+bour> but flogger went all holy paladin
[01:00:29] <+cerberusv6.66> But he just wants to fight you instead now?
[01:00:49] <+bour> he wants to kill me
[01:00:49] <+cerberusv6.66> Holy paladin? Wtf does that mean lil
[01:00:52] <+cerberusv6.66> *lol*
[01:01:06] <+bour> he said : "eowcf is sacred, now you die"
[01:01:06] <+cerberusv6.66> Gotcha.
[01:01:42] <+cerberusv6.66> Just don't give him a button. :p
[01:02:58] <+cerberusv6.66> How do you feel about this situation?
[01:03:07] <+bour> I like flogger
[01:03:36] <+cerberusv6.66> Me toom
[01:03:38] <+cerberusv6.66> *too*
[01:03:42] <+bour> and hitting into eowcf is ****ty
[01:03:57] <+bour> but well, he doesnt want to make thing right, he want a crusade*

*I never have been so right about someone just wanting a bloodbath and not wanting to settle things.

The real reason this happened is because I was on vacation and wasn't there to say what a bad idea that was. I did do an excellent job of calling it retarded after the fact though.

On the flip side, I wasn't there to enable Shamus. I fully support his approach of just doing whatever the **** he wants, all the time.

[Squee311]

you still seem to miss out on the fact that the domino effect of them getting hits does and how it effects the time line. Not a single one of you have addressed that. You think acres fix having a time to strike and a time to pump what was explored. You did a lot more than take acres and you "should" be a smart enough player to realize it.

[Sheister]

squee gets it.

But we are working to get there with the rest of them squee. It's a process.....