Some fite is for honor: Foxicorn's unifrogs vs FEYR TALES

[Zauper]

how many ages long do you keep your logs? i havent been in top ever so i dont know how long i should, but if you doubt anything im saying - you can just look at our earlier wave on ed this age which was cfed after much less than a wave.. i also find it intriguing coming from you, as im pretty sure you perfectly know every detail of ed vs fs fight of last age - and im pretty sure ive told you that its just keeping on because ed refuses to give anything for free..

I keep my logs indefinitely until a computer dies. I'm currently going through my 66MB logfile from ED looking for an offer like that and coming up short. In fact, there is no message to that extent that I can find between April 1 and April 8 (the '750 honor' convo). I think that's around when i get back.

I was on vacation for the earlier part of the conflict, so I'm not really sure what happened in it.

[Nightmare_]

Seems like the shoe's on the other foot now for all parties involved. Hypocrisy abounds.

[citadela01]

I keep my logs indefinitely until a computer dies. I'm currently going through my 66MB logfile from ED looking for an offer like that and coming up short. In fact, there is no message to that extent that I can find between April 1 and April 8 (the '750 honor' convo). I think that's around when i get back.

I was on vacation for the earlier part of the conflict, so I'm not really sure what happened in it.

How about your logs with Francis ?

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

I keep my logs indefinitely until a computer dies. I'm currently going through my 66MB logfile from ED looking for an offer like that and coming up short. In fact, there is no message to that extent that I can find between April 1 and April 8 (the '750 honor' convo). I think that's around when i get back.

I was on vacation for the earlier part of the conflict, so I'm not really sure what happened in it.

lets assume im all out lying and havent offered them anything - isnt it ed as the defender who needs to make some offers? anybody care to show me anything where ed makes any offers other than 'empty' cfs? when you repeatedly get 'empty' cf offers for +1 weeks, you just freak out in the end - just take a moment the full log of that '750 honor' convo, and see how it develops..

[Zauper]

How about your logs with Francis ?

My logs with Francis begin on April 21st, and '750 honor' conversation occurred on April 8th -- 2 weeks prior.

Those logs focus on the data around who explored when, which isn't entirely relevant to this? I think the conclusion we (Francis and I) drew was that FS explored ~4k acres and randomed for another 3k in that time period, after ED told them that they weren't going to explore to match and if FS wanted to explore they weren't interested.

I can post it if you care :p

[Zauper]

lets assume im all out lying and havent offered them anything - isnt it ed as the defender who needs to make some offers? anybody care to show me anything where ed makes any offers other than 'empty' cfs? when you repeatedly get 'empty' cf offers for +1 weeks, you just freak out in the end - just take a moment the full log of that '750 honor' convo, and see how it develops..

It's a two way street. They can look at it and say 'FS wasted our time by not committing to fighting, exploring, etc' (which is all true -- no agreement you'd war them if they matched your growth). Which is what they say. So they look at that and go well, why does FS deserve anything free? If they insist, we'll hold a grudge. You guys insisted, they held a grudge and went after you this age -- fairly so. And are ok with a reasonable offer after only 3 days. Seems like they're more reasonable than you?

At the time of the 750 honor conversation, you were up ~20k acres (and like 100k?) and ~10k honor? I'd likely CF for free in that situation, that's the equivalent of already being up multiple free waves?

Having said all that, you're right -- it's not the aggressors job to present offers. Although, at some point you have to accept either that you're bullying someone and there could be consequences (in future ages?). At the same time, the logs seem to say that you guys believed you were in conflict when neither side was hostile, and no hits had been exchanged for 24h+. How do you reconcile that with your approach this age?

[citadela01]

My logs with Francis begin on April 21st, and '750 honor' conversation occurred on April 8th -- 2 weeks prior.

Those logs focus on the data around who explored when, which isn't entirely relevant to this? I think the conclusion we (Francis and I) drew was that FS explored ~4k acres and randomed for another 3k in that time period, after ED told them that they weren't going to explore to match and if FS wanted to explore they weren't interested.

I can post it if you care :p

We never denied exploring AFTER ed refused war. But that would be mulling over the same old **** ... i was hoping for some insight in cf talks.
Francis didnt saved his logs and anyhting sent in pm's got lost in forum wipe.

[citadela01]

It's a two way street. They can look at it and say 'FS wasted our time by not committing to fighting, exploring, etc' (which is all true -- no agreement you'd war them if they matched your growth). Which is what they say. So they look at that and go well, why does FS deserve anything free? If they insist, we'll hold a grudge. You guys insisted, they held a grudge and went after you this age -- fairly so. And are ok with a reasonable offer after only 3 days. Seems like they're more reasonable than you?

At the time of the 750 honor conversation, you were up ~20k acres (and like 100k?) and ~10k honor? I'd likely CF for free in that situation, that's the equivalent of already being up multiple free waves?

Werent they up like 20k+ acres and 10k+ honor when we decided to roll over this age ? + whatever they had incoming since we stopped retaling.

[Zauper]

We never denied exploring AFTER ed refused war. But that would be mulling over the same old **** ... i was hoping for some insight in cf talks.
Francis didnt saved his logs and anyhting sent in pm's got lost in forum wipe.

e: i re-read your post, removing the logs about exploring. Francis and I talking about the CF stuff was kinda irrelevant since it was ~3-4 weeks into conflict?

This is really all we said about CFs:

Apr 21 16:41:26 <Francis> seriously, what is it there to be so butthurt over it
Apr 21 16:41:40 <Francis> why cant we walk away in peace after ending conflict
Apr 21 16:41:47 <zauper> i think
Apr 21 16:41:55 <zauper> from their perspective, they don't really care about it much anymore :p
Apr 21 16:42:02 <zauper> and it's just that both sides keep arguing that keeps them arguing
Apr 21 16:42:05 <zauper> inertia, if you will
Apr 21 16:42:36 <Francis> its alrdy out of control

Citedella: They are not yet up 20k vs you (18k via hits? Not sure if you guys used much LL considering all the mystics or not). Can't speak to honor, think it's in the 8-10k range. So yes, approaching the same place as last age when we go the 750 honor discussion -- and yet ED is open to a reasonable resolution at this point. A full wave, which is your definition of reasonable, would leave them up as much as you were last age when that discussion took place.

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

It's a two way street. They can look at it and say 'FS wasted our time by not committing to fighting, exploring, etc' (which is all true -- no agreement you'd war them if they matched your growth). Which is what they say. So they look at that and go well, why does FS deserve anything free? If they insist, we'll hold a grudge. You guys insisted, they held a grudge and went after you this age -- fairly so. And are ok with a reasonable offer after only 3 days. Seems like they're more reasonable than you?

At the time of the 750 honor conversation, you were up ~20k acres (and like 100k?) and ~10k honor? I'd likely CF for free in that situation, that's the equivalent of already being up multiple free waves?

Having said all that, you're right -- it's not the aggressors job to present offers. Although, at some point you have to accept either that you're bullying someone and there could be consequences (in future ages?). At the same time, the logs seem to say that you guys believed you were in conflict when neither side was hostile, and no hits had been exchanged for 24h+. How do you reconcile that with your approach this age?

we have approached ed before this conflict, and asked for prolonging the cf we had.. they refused and we have told them that if they wave us, the options are - we give them a free wave and cf, or they dont accept this and try to feed on us, but war is not an option for us at this point.. we didnt try to run away without making any concessions like they tried last age, and we have made our fair share of attempts to end this - but they thought they can push us around as much as they like and get away with that..

[Zauper]

we have approached ed before this conflict, and asked for prolonging the cf we had.. they refused and we have told them that if they wave us, the options are - we give them a free wave and cf, or they dont accept this and try to feed on us, but war is not an option for us at this point.. we didnt try to run away without making any concessions like they tried last age, and we have made our fair share of attempts to end this - but they thought they can push us around as much as they like and get away with that..

They offered you what you went to them looking for?

[15:12] <Parthenogenesis> I know they had some provs restart, but that was a while ago. They just had a big fat farm war and an eowcf. If we gave them time, hypothetically, they would just try to outgrow us. Its the game they played last age.
[15:13] <protector> Francis asked me if I knew your KD, said something about you'd likely look to be vulturing them oow. I knew you/helluva so I said I could ask if there could be made some arrangements
[15:14] <protector> Lets say you do give time, could make it a formal agreement they dont add more land in the mean time and use it to prepare for you?
[15:14] <Parthenogenesis> Im surprised he asked you. I know him well. I talked plenty with him last age, he could have come to me.
[15:14] <protector> I dont think he knew who you are
[15:14] <Parthenogenesis> could be
[15:15] <protector> Want me to tell him to come and talk to you directly instead?
[15:15] <Parthenogenesis> like I said, I have very little love for him or his kd, so Im sceptical. We can discuss if there is some deal we could agree to tho.
[15:15] <Parthenogenesis> God no, I hate talking to him.
[15:17] <protector> kk ;p
[15:17] <protector> He told me any day extra is welcome, so I dont know what you'd want to give and under which conditions
[17:10] <Parthenogenesis> hey
[17:10] * Looking up protector user info...
[17:10] * Looking up protector user info...
[17:18] <Parthenogenesis> We have a proposal, if youd like to forward it. They can have a short extension, on some conditions. Both KD's agree to no growth. Comes sunday, thy yield button with at least 2 hour margin before daychange decays it. That will give them 2.5 days extra for prepping or so.
[17:22] <Parthenogenesis> In utotime, we're talking...lets say june 13 up until daychange, where they have to yield button.

Like I said previously -- in top conflicts, we often see the equivalent of 2-3 waves for CF deals, especially later in the age. Given the feelings about eachother, asking for a little more than that isn't that extreme. Their ask was 4 waves, correct? (It's also hard to take honor OOW which could contribute)

[citadela01]

I was actually hopig to avoid that line of conversation ... its kinda offtopic. I will adress it tho and you feel free to add anything if you think its important.

Apr 21 16:21:31 <zauper> ok so, on apr13, you guys have gained 2.5k acres from conflict. So they've explored or hit outside for 2.5k acres, and you guys have explored ~5.2k acres.

Key line, we were both growing. Also it is not mentioned here but their main complaint was about growing ub tm's which was disproved later on, growth on elves came way later when war was completely out of the picture.
That land was gained on orcs who were under pressure to not get caught with troops home at potential wave. We were both doind same thing, only we were more succesfull. But frankly at that point we were still within like 5% nw land and that was peanuts

[Zauper]

I was actually hopig to avoid that line of conversation ... its kinda offtopic. I will adress it tho and you feel free to add anything if you think its important.

Apr 21 16:21:31 <zauper> ok so, on apr13, you guys have gained 2.5k acres from conflict. So they've explored or hit outside for 2.5k acres, and you guys have explored ~5.2k acres.

Key line, we were both growing. Also it is not mentioned here but their main complaint was about growing ub tm's which was disproved later on, growth on elves came way later when war was completely out of the picture.
That land was gained on orcs who were under pressure to not get caught with troops home at potential wave. We were both doind same thing, only we were more succesfull. But frankly at that point we were still within like 5% nw land and that was peanuts

I removed those logs, sorry, I had misread :p

[citadela01]

no, I am grateful, they contained link that allowed me to track down cached version of that thread.
I will go through it to track down ingame msgs about cf talks.

[Zauper]

It's a two way street. They can look at it and say 'FS wasted our time by not committing to fighting, exploring, etc' (which is all true -- no agreement you'd war them if they matched your growth). Which is what they say. So they look at that and go well, why does FS deserve anything free? If they insist, we'll hold a grudge. You guys insisted, they held a grudge and went after you this age -- fairly so. And are ok with a reasonable offer after only 3 days. Seems like they're more reasonable than you?

At the time of the 750 honor conversation, you were up ~20k acres (and like 100k?) and ~10k honor? I'd likely CF for free in that situation, that's the equivalent of already being up multiple free waves?

Having said all that, you're right -- it's not the aggressors job to present offers. Although, at some point you have to accept either that you're bullying someone and there could be consequences (in future ages?). At the same time, the logs seem to say that you guys believed you were in conflict when neither side was hostile, and no hits had been exchanged for 24h+. How do you reconcile that with your approach this age?

Here are some logs about this:

<Parthenogenesis> Hey I got a question. We're obviously interested in moving on, so, lets for the sake of argument say we get into a war. What would you do?
<Francis> i consider what we have as a war already, it wouldnt be advisable to have 2 wars at once

Not entirely sure how to reconcile that. Last age, FS says that they consider their conflict (and OOW retal conflict) to be a war, and ED can't get out by going into conflict elsewhere (or presumably by not hitting), but this age FS can?