As a prov preping for war you draft as deep as possible. More peasants and a higher gc/peasent economy means you can draft deeper...always draft deeper.Originally Posted by pathetic sheep
As a prov preping for war you draft as deep as possible. More peasants and a higher gc/peasent economy means you can draft deeper...always draft deeper.
Why draft deeper? What purpose does that serve other than to get more military.
If you want more military why would you not want mil sci?
You took that quote out of context. Sure break a T/M and another attacker. Or break 4 (5 for avian). I am saying that will be easier to achieve if you get all of the sciences. Success or failure is determined by outperforming the opposition.
That last part is true. A good balance includes all of the sciences. Crime, channeling and mil sci also boost your economy. You could then spend that on books.
An even spread is optimal for a "normal" attacker. As soon as you do something is abnormal you should consider a slight shift in the sciences. But take the square root of the shift. Low value categories should still be more than half of the others.
Last edited by pathetic sheep; 15-09-2015 at 16:53.
Point:point mil sci returns less military than popsci at high draft.
The more you draft and train, the more you have available? Wouldn't you want to sqeeze out every little bit you possibly can? Example: if you can get 105opa by pushing it, why settle for 95?
Military science doesnt increase your raw military numbers, it modifies your raw numbers.
Wrong. Alchemy, tools & housing directly affect your economy. Crime, channeling and military only have a (possible) indirect boost gained from stealing/plundering or the extra runes you get from channeling, making you need less towers and thus letting you have more economic buildings.
It's not optimal to spread evenly. Lets say a province has 1000 books/acre available to spend. You're saying you're best off by putting 142/143 books/acre in each categorie? I can think of a few ways to spend it better.
because it gives me more raw military units. If you cant figure out why more military (not higher mods) is better you should be in irc talking to more experienced people because the forums aren't where your going to learn everything, the forums no matter how much people wright aren't going to give you a full sense for how to play this game the best.
Last edited by Persain; 16-09-2015 at 12:03.
I believe ps's point here is that if you invest in military science you can get the same off/def with lower draft. It may therefore be better to have mil science and lower draft than econ sciences and high draft rate. Not that higher draft isn't better per se, simply that by investing your science wisely you can maximize your military.
Military science has an economic benefit because it allows you to run the same off/def numbers with lower units. Same with crime for TPA, and magic for WPA. More pezzies = more econ. If you then choose to draft those "extra" pezzies and boost military (or TPA/WPA) further that's your choice, but there is still an economic benefit - your books in military allow you to run better military numbers with the same econ, or better econ with the same military.
The key point here is there is (nearly) always a point at which 1 book in one science will have the same magnitude effect as 1 book in another science (e.g. 1 book in mil acts as 1 extra unit, 1 book in thief acts as an extra unit / 1 book in farming acts as x farms, 1 book in alchemy acts as x banks). At this point the Marginal Rate of Exchange is equal and a book in each science is worth the same amount to you. If you deviate from this optimal distribution then you aren't allocating your resources efficiently. There are two difficulties though: firstly, it can be difficult to equate the effects of different sciences (wizards can't be trained at will but require guilds * time, so Channeling is effectively the only way of boosting your WPA and is therefore more valuable than otherwise expected, and it is difficult to put a numerical value on this); secondly, because your province is dynamic this "sweet spot" of allocation will change so you need to distribute science based on what will be most useful at various times (are you pumping all age? Will you be fighting 11 min-time wars with lots of EOWCF or 4-5 protracted wars with recovery periods spent waving?)
Ultimately there is no right distribution, but there are wrong distributions - where you could have improved your province by distributing science differently, without compromising any other area (your distribution is not Pareto optimal)
Economically, while housing science is better than the others by far, there are practical limits to how beneficial housing investment is. Early age, most kingdoms are going to go for either growth or early war, which limits how much of an econ boost housing gives. Late age, it's often too late to get much benefit out of econ sci, so you're better off going for the scis with more direct effect for whatever end-of-age plan you have. During the middle age (say YR2-8) is a good time to really go for housing. Early age it's still valuable and shouldn't be neglected most of the time, but the other scis are helpful for early war and early econ.
The reasons for getting other scis is mostly because, in a longer war, those are the sciences that will have the most effect. It has nothing to do with what a static prov would run on paper (if it were, housing wins out by a huge margin for economy and most military purposes), it has to do with how those scis affect a province independent on factors that are pumpable:
Alchemy - the extra gc takes effect during war, when underpopped, or when building banks. It's a key econ sci anyway, so you'd want that early.
Tools - most of the buildings that really care about BE do things that aren't compensated by pumping, like barracks speed and watchtower auto-catch. BE bonuses work best on reduction buildings like those. It's also a really slight economy boost throughout the age, and perhaps extra wizzies generated.
Food - really underrated, because unlike Tools, the land saved by farms can be channeled towards one specific thing. Useless if you run deficits or steal for food often, but there are far better things to do thamn
Military - all the reasons I mentioned above. the ME affects everything regarless of population, and affects mounts/prisonnes as well.
Crime - self-evident
Channleing - it's tough for attackers to gain a substantial wpa advantage against good kds,. Also good for rune production, which is mostly independent of your popluation.
Given 1000 bpa to work with mid-age, I probably would desire a mostly even split, except some taken out of alchemy, tools,and either crime or channeling (usually crime). It depends on race and setup too.
If I were rollling an Avian/attacker perso (Warrior/Tact/Cleric/WH) as many people are this age, I'd probably go 3:3:8:2:6:5:5 by YR8 or so, if I'm in a warghetto. At 1000 bpa that puts housing at 250 bpa (+10.8% base effects), most others at 125 bpa. It's not the only mix and doesn't account for the sci I really should be learn attacking off of people, but it gives me enough crime/channeling to gain roughly +13% mtpa/wpa over attackers with half the bpa in crime/channeling of mine, and better if their sci is inferior to mine generally. While that isn't enough to op outright, it makes it easier to gain leverage over another attacker by training extra tpa, and it's easier to take advantage of weak spots when they appear or are created. Alternatively, it means that 1.76 tpa is equivalent to about 2, and while that's inferior for max pop, it's not by much.
And my point is a higher draft rate is always better, regardless of it increasing your off/def or not. And to get a deeper draft you need more pop/alchemy/be science. And add to the fact that early/mid age you should be on slightly lower draft so you can research science faster and theres no reason not to focus on those 3 over the others asap.
Well looks like I need those lessons you were offering to ps too because I can't see why you'd run higher draft if it didn't increase your off/def... surely the whole point of drafting deeply is to have as much off/def as you can squeeze out of your province. If so, then I'd prefer higher off/def at lower draft than lower off/def at higher draft, and thus there will be an optimal range* of distributions between the econ sciences and military sciences.
* a range because of how much each individual values off/def/TPA/WPA/gc, and to allow for dynamic changes in your situation
RiffArt pretty much nailed it. I was starting to feel outvoted.
You should rethink that. Take for example your example of guilds. Tools boosts the guilds. Now you do not need as many so you can convert some guilds into something else. A 1% tools bonus is comparable to 8% farm bonus. Either one will free up around 0.8 buildings in many cases.
The thing with the farms bonus is yes the science is valuable, but worse comes to worse its a lot easier to steal some food/get aid than it is magically get 1% more buildings overall. in fact WHEN chained oftentimes most races will end up on 0 farms anyway needing either aid or just say @#$@# it and go 0 def and thus not feed farms. At that point that extra science you pumped in BE v Food effects things like rax/gs/tg.....stuff that actually matters when trying to "survive" a deep chain.
go in #tactics and start asking, you may get lucky and find a knowledgeable person whose willing to commit the time. Either that or join a good kd and have their strategy people explain. For the quick summary in the "whore tier" they'll basically say something like you always want more nw to make topfeeds easier and spare troops that u can lose to attrition. In the war their they'll say something like having more off/def makes finding wars harder, but having the military allows you to hide your strength covert your buildings/wages and whatnot mid war and hid your real advantages....both sides can show math/strategies/concepts that will confrim more military units=better if u need the full explanation.
Thought you needed someone to tag in ;-)
Valid points but this is why it's necessary to estimate how much value you place on different things. The value you place on 1 acre of farmland from farming isn't necessarily the same as you place on extra BE contributing 1 "extra" acre of land from tools. That doesn't undermine the point that you can maximize your province's assets (adjusted for the value you place on those different assets) by correctly allocating science.
I'm no expert so I'll bow to your judgment here, though I'd be willing to argue each of those points. In any case, my thesis is still valid as soon as you assign value to nw or military units rather than just off/def or opnw/dpnw. If what you value is the absolute number of military units (or units/acre, or whatever), each of these can be given value and your science can be allocated to maximize your value. While military science can't contribute to UnitPA, Crime and Channeling can (by holding TPA/WPA constant and substituting the "extra" thieves/wizards for military units), as can Farming (by removing the need for some farms which can be re-utilised as houses). Hence even if all you care about is PopPA (and hence a potentially higher UnitPA) there is a need for a variety of sciences to maximize this.
Utopia isnt just a math game. To many people take that approach and while optimizing XYZ at a given time may be smart it often requires that you play sub-optimally at different times. For example having your top prov be on 0% rax but 40% GS is hardly optimal for that prov, but if your only goal is to make him hard to chain he benefits the KD....which could be the kd goal. Similarly my suggestion of building the econ/pop/be sciences early is sub-optimal for a prov while it is training science, but is optimal when trying to balance training/war-readiness with mid age science pumping.
Its fine that'd u'd want to argue a few points, and who knows maybe one of your ideas would be good, but theres a reason why the "top" whore and war kds usually have 2-3 people running all the stats/builds/concepts its because they understand where to really run counter-intuitive builds/training/tell someone to do something stupid like full suicide. Is something thats really hard to learn..i for example had to be taught how to do science and it took 2-3 ages for me to really get a grasp of why i seemed to always lag behind.
Remember the age when mil sci functioned at the same rate as housing? Remember how brokenly strong that was with Sage? I do.
Mil sci is good if you understand the game's mechanics and want to be a more effective attacker, particularly the races that can't really defend (orc, undead, avian).
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