The U (#4) v/s Settlers (#5)

[Mithras]

They are asking for a CF. And you guys are claiming that they were refusing to CF you. So something is at odds. Either they were willing to CF or they weren't.

As you have already posted in the logs it is clear that they asked for a cf, we presented our terms, they refused. No idea why you are pretending to be stupid.

[Zauper]

As you have already posted in the logs it is clear that they asked for a cf, we presented our terms, they refused. No idea why you are pretending to be stupid.

So, you are agreeing that they were willing to CF you and you were not willing to give them a CF?

And then you used that excuse to 'have' to train up and wave them and dodge us?

Don't pretend to be dumb. The claim -- here, on IRC, everywhere -- was that Settlers refused to CF you. Now it comes out that Settlers was always willing to CF, you just wanted significant land for it.

And because they didn't want to give you free land, you "felt threatened" (though there was no threat) enough to train up and wave them.

That's 100% on you, and no one else. You knew you had conflict coming.

[Mithras]

I also saw a log of you both:
1) Informing them that Emeriti had no interest in CF after you waved them
and
2) Informing them that you would make us extend you if you CFed them.

The first of which is at odds with your claim; the second of which gets us involved.

Settlers have had a standing CF offer since our wave wich they had rejected. Since you a quoting our logs I'm sure that you can find what it was. Or did settlers doctor all the logs you got?

[Zauper]

Settlers have had a standing CF offer since our wave wich they had rejected. Since you a quoting our logs I'm sure that you can find what it was. Or did settlers doctor all the logs you got?

You mean these logs? Please show me the standing CF offer.

0930:14:05] <Sn0wballz> honestly I just want you all to stop hitting and move on
[0930:14:09] <Mithras> Can not do that at this point. We need a resolution to this
[0930:14:10] <Sn0wballz> you get land
[0930:14:10] <Sn0wballz> we get CF
[0930:14:10] <Mithras> That is not good enough
[0930:14:10] <Mithras> It would have been
[0930:14:10] <Mithras> If you hadn't forced us to draft
[0930:14:10] <Mithras> Right now we need the acres and the time to prep for CR
[0930:14:11] <Sn0wballz> I'm still not sure how I forced you to draft
[0930:14:11] <Sn0wballz> I was going to war with x:
[0930:14:11] <Mithras> The discussion we had was always acres for cf or fight
[0930:14:12] <Mithras> Warring x:x was never an option
[0930:14:13] <Mithras> Had we done the first then we would not be forced to draft
[0930:14:13] <Mithras> Now it became the second option
[0930:14:13] <Mithras> And we were forced to draft
[0930:14:13] <Sn0wballz> but you can't expect me to stop my game for you
[0930:14:14] <Mithras> I don't
[0930:14:14] <Sn0wballz> we had the discussion, didn't come to anything and then we got a war with 3:10
[0930:14:14] <Sn0wballz> then you decide to wave us
[0930:14:14] <Mithras> yes
[0930:14:14] <Mithras> Since you were not agreeing to a cf
[0930:14:15] <Mithras> The other option was a fight

Perhaps you mean the standing CF offer is 'Give us 10k acres'? Is that the standing CF offer?

And again -- they were offering you a CF the entire time. If you really felt threatened, you could (should!) have taken it to prep for us.

To quote Dorje again:

The real question is why did Mom not make any attempt to ceasefire Sanc, when they knew an incoming notice from Havoc was on the table? Here I was sitting all postwar waiting for such a request, and when it didn't come I assumed mom intended to dodge havoc by waving us. But now the only thing I can come up with is that mom intended to stand by the ludicrous/debunked "havoc can't notice us until we ceasefire Sanc" argument.

And no, feeling entitled to acres does not entail 'well, we tried'.

[Mithras]

So, you are agreeing that they were willing to CF you and you were not willing to give them a CF?

And then you used that excuse to 'have' to train up and wave them and dodge us?

Don't pretend to be dumb. The claim -- here, on IRC, everywhere -- was that Settlers refused to CF you. Now it comes out that Settlers was always willing to CF, you just wanted significant land for it.

And because they didn't want to give you free land, you "felt threatened" (though there was no threat) enough to train up and wave them.

That's 100% on you, and no one else. You knew you had conflict coming.

...

We demanded acres for a cf. So did they. No agreement was reached.
They were a kd without CF that drafted and trained. We went to both collect acres and make sure they didn't pose a threat to us.
Settlers refused all our offers to CF. No one is questioning that. Same as we refused to give them a CF since their terms was a joke.
In regards to being threatened, we had no CF and they trained. You would have done the same. Everyone would. You are just making this into a circus number to try to justify an upcoming 2 on 1 vs us.
And we know we have a conflict coming and we were ready to take that conflict. But since settlers stalled, with your advise, we are in this situation now.

And that, is completely on you giving settlers bad advise.

[jdorje]

The real question is why did Mom not make any attempt to ceasefire Sanc, when they knew an incoming notice from Havoc was on the table? Here I was sitting all postwar waiting for such a request, and when it didn't come I assumed mom intended to dodge havoc by waving us. But now the only thing I can come up with is that mom intended to stand by the ludicrous/debunked "havoc can't notice us until we ceasefire Sanc" argument.

And no, feeling entitled to acres does not entail 'well, we tried'.

If you're going to quote history, you should make an attempt to get it right. In that 5-year-ago war Havoc had already noticed Mom prior to them starting a fight against Sanc. They fought Sanc to dodge Havoc, then attempted to rewave Sanc to dodge Havoc again. At the end of the war they were vultured by Havoc and Sanc was vultured by PewPew. At no point did Havoc give notice into a hostile or dealbreak Mom. I would not put that incident up as an example of fair play, but it also did not involve dealbreaking.

[Mithras]

Perhaps you mean the standing CF offer is 'Give us 10k acres'? Is that the standing CF offer?

And again -- they were offering you a CF the entire time. If you really felt threatened, you could (should!) have taken it to prep for us.

No 10k acres was never a cf offer we made. And those are not the logs. And no, you do not get to dictate who we fight and when. We have a 1 on 1 fight with settlers that you broke our agreement and noticed into. Now we are going to finish that fight on terms acceptable to us and settlers. Or we will continue to fight. You will get your fight but after we finish this fight to keep it on a 1 v 1 basis.

[Zauper]

...

We demanded acres for a cf. So did they. No agreement was reached.

They did not demand acres for a CF. They offered you a CF.

They were a kd without CF that drafted and trained. We went to both collect acres and make sure they didn't pose a threat to us.
Settlers refused all our offers to CF.

I'm not sure what this means. They were offering you a CF. If they were a true threat, you would have taken it, not tried to use it as an excuse to run. Again, the advice from Dorje rings true here.

No one is questioning that. Same as we refused to give them a CF since their terms was a joke.

'CF'. That's a joke? Lots of kds get that.

In regards to being threatened, we had no CF and they trained. You would have done the same. Everyone would. You are just making this into a circus number to try to justify an upcoming 2 on 1 vs us.

Nope, I would have hoped they wave me and gotten a free farm war, OR I would give them a free CF. That's what any smart KD would do.

I wouldn't ruin my prep because I feel entitled to land from a ghetto 3 days pre-conflict, I can tell you that. In fact... we gave

And we know we have a conflict coming and we were ready to take that conflict. But since settlers stalled, with your advise, we are in this situation now.

And that, is completely on you giving settlers bad advise.

We didn't give them any advice to stall.

This is 100% on you, and no one else. Go read the advice from Dorje a third or fourth time until it sinks into your brain. This is how your leadership wants you to play.

[Zauper]

If you're going to quote history, you should make an attempt to get it right. In that 5-year-ago war Havoc had already noticed Mom prior to them starting a fight against Sanc. They fought Sanc to dodge Havoc, then attempted to rewave Sanc to dodge Havoc again. At the end of the war they were vultured by Havoc and Sanc was vultured by PewPew. At no point did Havoc give notice into a hostile or dealbreak Mom. I would not put that incident up as an example of fair play, but it also did not involve dealbreaking.

If they weren't hostile when Havoc waved in, then you aren't hostile when we served notice.

Sorry.

The REAL difference? Settlers are a ghetto significantly smaller than you, and had offered you a CF -- which you declined because you wanted to bully them. So all the advice that you and ASF gave about not entering into other conflicts when you have one coming up? They absolutely apply here, because you had a conflict coming and opted to try to fight someone else instead.

Oh, and dorje? That quote is entirely applicable, because it was about behavior before notice was even served. It's about getting that CF instead of training up to wave them. For example, the paraphrased version of it is 'The reason Emeriti didn't agree to CF settlers (short duration, ending right after conflict -- just like CR did with CP!) is because they wanted to dodge'. This is furthered by you actually trying to use them to dodge, the extent of the bullying (trying to force 10k & and extension from us), and your poor prep.

[Zauper]

No 10k acres was never a cf offer we made. And those are not the logs. And no, you do not get to dictate who we fight and when. We have a 1 on 1 fight with settlers that you broke our agreement and noticed into. Now we are going to finish that fight on terms acceptable to us and settlers. Or we will continue to fight. You will get your fight but after we finish this fight to keep it on a 1 v 1 basis.

So those are not real logs? Are you sure?

10k acres for CF was not an offer you made?

[16:08:33] <@zapanap> [16:07:45] <chris_keeling> <jdorje> 10k was the initial ask
[16:08:33] <@zapanap> [16:07:45] <chris_keeling> <jdorje> i dont see why we'd drop from that
[16:08:33] <@zapanap> [16:07:45] <chris_keeling> <jdorje> but it depends on the cf duration

Ok.

You don't have a 1v1 fight with settlers. You're bullying a ghetto that just wanted a CF and demanding 10k+ acres from them. At the time we served notice, you had taken 10k acres and they had not hit back in over 12h, satisfying the requirements as laid out in the Havoc/Sanc/AMA situation for not being hostile.

[Band of Horses]

I don't understand why anyone even tries to argue with CRnCR or Expendables prior to that, they have amazing PR people. Zaup is solo handling all of Emeriti right now; take notes kids.

#GetYourPoundOfFlesh

[Persain]

You don't have a 1v1 fight with settlers. You're bullying a ghetto that just wanted a CF and demanding 10k+ acres from them. At the time we served notice, you had taken 10k acres and they had not hit back in over 12h, satisfying the requirements as laid out in the Havoc/Sanc/AMA situation for not being hostile.

which would of been fine if the cf went up? but when settlers starting hitting back doesnt that kind of retroactively make it an extended hostile?

[Zauper]

which would of been fine if the cf went up? but when settlers starting hitting back doesnt that kind of retroactively make it an extended hostile?

Nope, it wasn't hostile at the time notice was given. You would need a reset clause to cover the other piece.

[Persain]

Nope, it wasn't hostile at the time notice was given. You would need a reset clause to cover the other piece.

the meter was 0-15+ right? thats "hostile" on the meter. If settlers cf'ed up you could argue that the "fight" ended when the last hit before the cf went up was made, however the meter would have still read hostile. That would seem reasonable as thats akin to randoming out i mean if i hit a gheto to 20 points but they never touch me what do i care if i get waved for a real war.

In contrast if i hit a gheto to 20-30-40+ points with the intent on trying to force a 150 meter autowar and they start hiting me back its pretty obvious that there is an active hostile going i just waved an inept kd.

[Zauper]

the meter was 0-15+ right? thats "hostile" on the meter. If settlers cf'ed up you could argue that the "fight" ended when the last hit before the cf went up was made, however the meter would have still read hostile. That would seem reasonable as thats akin to randoming out i mean if i hit a gheto to 20 points but they never touch me what do i care if i get waved for a real war.

In contrast if i hit a gheto to 20-30-40+ points with the intent on trying to force a 150 meter autowar and they start hiting me back its pretty obvious that there is an active hostile going i just waved an inept kd.

Meter is irrelevant, they weren't fighting back in any way and there was no button present. No ops afaik, no cow plan, no hit plan, etc.

The posts from asf make this clear - you can't just wave ghettos indefinitely and be protected.