The bottom is hot

[Persain]

Arguments that it is "obvious" or that we are required to honour the "intent" of a deal and not the letter of a deal have not changed my mind, although they have strengthened my belief that we should not be messing around with **** play at all even against kds that have wronged us.

Regardless of what you think u guys dealbroke or not, the fact is multiple kds agree with us and bart was offered a chance to make things right for VERY little damage, and even offered a war as part of it. If he didnt want the war a token offer of some honor (something your kd finds valuable) could have at least been offered. As it wasn't and he simply continued to be insulting and this is the result.

The "correct" response from bart after waving was "no we didn't deal break see i tricked you.....oh every kd agrees we deal broke, fine i'll learn from this and wont try to lie/cheat with our cf's from now on. Now whats a reasonable offer to make things right. We dont wanna war so how about XYZ honor and when the FS/Acention war is over we tell them we wont war either of them untill one of them agrees to war you" Boom thats how a real leader handles things. He could still have gone after koalas or screwd up perverts or even wared for the honor crown with FS/Acention if neither really wanted to war us. Thats how a real leader handles these things.

We werent scared to war divinity, we just hate long hostiles and are not set up for them and divinity didnt want to short hostile.

In addtion we actually offered u guys a war with ZERO hostile length. The issue we had when u guys initially approached us was we had crappy wpa and a bad spread, that combined with setups meant we had to hostile if we wanted to war you. After we waved for a cf and bart had u guys grow to dealbreak us we were 96k v 92k acres and offered to war u after a 3 days fort prep where we'd give u the button and u could instantly declare. That 4% advantage, the small time we had to pump wpa and slight size adjustments made it a really tough fight but one we were willing to try. Instead we got waved.

If you've never herd either of these things maybe thats my fault for not posting them clearly enough. Maybe its your leaders fault for hiding the on-goings of your kd and its leadership from you. Maybe you have and just don't care in which case i'll make it really clear and summarize our stance.
Your leader shows no remorse outside of not having the top kd back him. He STILL threatens to spend 2 ages just trying to screw over the kds i'm friends with unless we stop hitting you guys. Now as your kds leaders' attitude is not one of sorrow nor provides an indication of attempting to alter his behavior it is very reasonable that we demand as a kd you guys give up something of value, and then demand some terms to ensure this doesn't happen in the future. What is of value to you is honor and war wins. While we cant demand you declare and lose a war on purpose, what we can do is have you surrender a current war or use a button we've been provided while additionally requiring you to lose honor. Alternatively if one or both of those things wont happen because your leader is smart enough (and he is smart just not moral) to doge something we will have to gb/pk people to remove honor as that's all we're left with. If/when you guys would want that to end, we'd THEN want to be compensated for our wasted time by requiring harshly worded "iron clad" cf's with your kd.

[khronosschoty]

Leonidas, I still don't get your complain of offering ghettoes "sweet deals". I mean, if there are any kingdoms out there that want to test themselves against an "Elite" kingdom, I would suggest Spartans. They will give you a fair deal so you actually have chance to win, they will not demolish your kingdom, and they will give you sound advice afterwards. What more could you ask for?

So here is situation 1) An Elite kingdom lies and says they are new like us, and offers us a fair and friendly war. Then they grow to 2k acres more than us before declare date and proceed to kill off three of my provinces in war. Then they taunt us with banners, and make fun of us for being newbs in the forum. I point this out to the "Heroes of Utopia" and you all flame me for being a newb and falling for their BS. Noone gets all up in arms about ghetto bashing then, do they?

Situation 2) Spartans offers us a fair war with a growth cap. No PK'ing, AW, or Massacres. Whoever is the clear winner surrenders. You actually say that they are ghetto bashing us?

Leonidas, I understand your problem. If my success in utopia was based on lying, cheating, and stealing from ghetto kingdoms I would be pretty pissed when someone came in and started teaching ghettos how the elites lie, cheat, and steal. In fact, I would get all my elite brethren together and try to kill off that jerk who is ruining the game for me. Then I would go to the forums and tell everyone how this dude is not actually HELPING the ghetto's get better, but he is swindling them and bashing them. Hey, those ghetto monarchs were stupid enough to fall for ur dirty tricks for ages, I am sure they will believe you again, right?

Bottom line there is some seriously shady people in this game. In fact, there are so many of them it actually makes me think about quitting the game again everytime I have to deal with one. I can honestly say that Spartans is not one of them, and any kingdom going after Spartans you want to avoid like the plague because they are the shady ones.

You are very elite at the art of libel... its not an art I find honorable; but rather I know it to be disingenuous. Libel, however, may work; that is until people catch on. People that employ this dark art often times have to change nicks etc.

[Uncle Ed]

I take English is not ur first language Khrono, cause I have no idea wtf ur talking about or accusing me of. Explain?

[khronosschoty]

I take English is not ur first language Khrono, cause I have no idea wtf ur talking about or accusing me of. Explain?

Oxford English Dictionary
verb (libels, libelling, libelled; US libels, libeling, libeled) [ with obj. ]
1 Law defame (someone) by publishing a libel: the jury found that he was libelled by a newspaper.
• make a false and typically malicious statement about.

[Persain]

Leonidas, I still don't get your complain of offering ghettoes "sweet deals". I mean, if there are any kingdoms out there that want to test themselves against an "Elite" kingdom, I would suggest Spartans. They will give you a fair deal so you actually have chance to win, they will not demolish your kingdom, and they will give you sound advice afterwards. What more could you ask for?

...

The thing is their offer ISNT fair, it just seems fair because your inexperienced. Im not saying omg look u a gheto u suck blah blah blah, im saying that their offer to you is not one that puts you on having even a 50-50 shot at winning even if u see that and they talked you up like you had a shot. Let me put it to way agreeing to baby you while it might seem nice offers you no real learning experience. You dont get the sense of really how much more advantaged they were. (for example to war CR right now if i was magically handed 100k+ acres i'd need to have a MINIMUM 20-30% land/nw advantage to make for their wpa/science advantage and the nw effiency it provides them saying yea lets war fair at the same nw still probably wouldn't be even be a remotely fair fight)

For example in your 2 cases the kd 1, the one that crushed you, yes they were !#@$#@, yes they were even worse for taunting you and those pks were probubly 100% not needed. However you've now learned "elite" kds will often lie to you and then beat you to ****. Its a good thing to know, be weary of offers, be prepared for a tough fight and then remember them as you either dont want to war them again or have to be prepared to fight them knowing they may pk. A good example here is freeakstyle i wont war them early mid age because they learn in war. Learns do less damage/hit than massacres in war but are very lasting after wars. We differ in ideology and i chose not to war them early/mid age as i dont wanna deal with the drama of having to rewave them post war to recoup science if we win, or be completely striped of science and WEEKS behind in science if we lose.

Kd 2, being spartans yes those kinds of terms are basically "gheto bashing" when they KNOW their setup is strong unless it gets massacred, aw'ed or their high off/fast chaining orcs get pk'ed. While it may seem "nice" those terms actually benefit them more than you.

Bottom line there is some seriously shady people in this game. In fact, there are so many of them it actually makes me think about quitting the game again everytime I have to deal with one. I can honestly say that Spartans is not one of them, and any kingdom going after Spartans you want to avoid like the plague because they are the shady ones.

Bottom line is u said u warred us and we were nice? maybe us v Spartans here changes your overall view of us, but think back how did our aproach pre-war differ from theres. Was there less talk, less terms, my gut says we probubly said "hey lets war next day or two good?" and then let u say what worked best for you.

And note, even if they really were manipulating you or 100's of others our beef with them right now has nothing to do with that. Our beef is how they handled their cf's and post dealbreak with us. They may litterally be the nicest kd in the game but how they've handled THIS interaction is worthy of being reminded that there are better ways to handle things (perhaps how they handled you they should of handled us?).

[Leonidas]

Leonidas, I still don't get your complain of offering ghettoes "sweet deals". I mean, if there are any kingdoms out there that want to test themselves against an "Elite" kingdom, I would suggest Spartans. They will give you a fair deal so you actually have chance to win, they will not demolish your kingdom, and they will give you sound advice afterwards. What more could you ask for?

This right here is a big part of the problem. They will give you a "fair" deal so you actually think you have a chance to win, they will not demolish your kingdom and in exchange you will not hurt their T/Ms, and they will give you sound advice afterwards which many top players have been known to give for free on IRC. What more could they ask for?

So here is situation 1) An Elite kingdom lies and says they are new like us, and offers us a fair and friendly war. Then they grow to 2k acres more than us before declare date and proceed to kill off three of my provinces in war. Then they taunt us with banners, and make fun of us for being newbs in the forum. I point this out to the "Heroes of Utopia" and you all flame me for being a newb and falling for their BS. Noone gets all up in arms about ghetto bashing then, do they?

Situation 2) Spartans offers us a fair war with a growth cap. No PK'ing, AW, or Massacres. Whoever is the clear winner surrenders. You actually say that they are ghetto bashing us?

Leonidas, I understand your problem. If my success in utopia was based on lying, cheating, and stealing from ghetto kingdoms I would be pretty pissed when someone came in and started teaching ghettos how the elites lie, cheat, and steal. In fact, I would get all my elite brethren together and try to kill off that jerk who is ruining the game for me. Then I would go to the forums and tell everyone how this dude is not actually HELPING the ghetto's get better, but he is swindling them and bashing them. Hey, those ghetto monarchs were stupid enough to fall for ur dirty tricks for ages, I am sure they will believe you again, right?

Bottom line there is some seriously shady people in this game. In fact, there are so many of them it actually makes me think about quitting the game again everytime I have to deal with one. I can honestly say that Spartans is not one of them, and any kingdom going after Spartans you want to avoid like the plague because they are the shady ones.

First and foremost, of course the first kingdom that screwed you over are plain assholes as well. Which Elite kingdom are they? (Not that I can do anything about it since I don't play anymore) I don't recall ever saying that what they did was good, but I was writing about Spartans, not your kingdom.

Secondly, other than the fact that it isn't actually a fair chance to win (unless by fair you mean what, 20%, which is roughly the number of wars that Spartans loses based on estimates, plus the fact that these are probably against better than average kingdoms), and also the fact that offering such terms are skirting the lines of a fake war, Sparta seems to want to win or place high in honour and war-win charts not by actually being good (and say, beating other "top" kingdoms around there), but by gaming the war system (fight ghettoes 10 times, win most of them, end up high in war-wins and honour due to game mechanics - firstly how hard it is to gain honour outside of war, and secondly a war win system that favours number of wins over who you actually beat)

No, you don't understand my problem at all. I don't even play in top kingdoms nor have I ever played in them. My current Utopia job is reading the forums and updating the wiki (actually, I've been skiving mostly). I've played nearly exclusively in ghettoes, which is why it pisses me off. Top kingdoms would care about the "dealbreak" stuff, since it's their own world they've invented with their own crazy rules that change every week. I care that Spartans would make use of ghettoes to get a leg up in whatever aims they have for the age, and even paint it as being "fair" to ghettoes. I can see why to the ghetto if you've been hard done by by other kingdoms, they look like white knights. From an outside standpoint, it looks like bull**** to me.

Beans - It would be 100% illegal to say "no targeting T/Ms" in war, since non-aggression pacts are clearly not allowed. Your set of rules effectively say "no targeting t/ms in meaningful ways". Even if you truly only have well-meaning intentions, it's skirting the lines of a fake war.

[Avispa]

Libel is the legal term for lying.
It seems anyone who stands up for Spartans gets hammered.
There are some people who make errors of judgement and say they made a shifty move and there may also be people who twist the truth a little for their own gain. I believe Spartans made an error of judgment and admitted to a ****ty move based on my experience with them.

[Uncle Ed]

First of all, Spartans did not just come out and offer the terms. They approached me the same way you did, I just had a different answer for them. We had quite a few back and forths about what had happened the previous war, and where I messed up in negotiations. You see, I never even thought about the shady crap you guys pull during negotiations, and how easy it was to get an advantage before war even started. Bart took the time to explain that to me so I would not fall for it again. Just like I have shown respect for Divinity, and Seagulls and others in this game that have helped me learn the new dynamic of war, I show the same respect for Spartans.

Ascension was the kingdom in scenario 1. We had very little chance of beating them, but we thought it was a good opportunity to test our progress as a kingdom, and talking to their monarch I felt it would be a fun and friendly war. Like I said before, they had 18 guys that would log on 20 hours a day, and log off for the same 4 hours everyday. We were still holding our own until they started PK'ing. So yes, Persian I did learn that elite kingdoms will lie, and I learned that they will PK too. But what I also learned is the Utopian Police has no problem with this whatsoever. Elites bashing ghetto's is ur thing, right? Some do it nicely, like you and Seagulls, and others are complete dicks about it like Ascension, but you all do it. That is why no one got too pissed when I mentioned this before. That is why the "White Knights" did not get all up in arms to raze the might Ascension. I mean I did not put in an acre cap, so they had every right to grow. I did not say "no PK" so they had every right to kill off three of my provinces. They did nothing wrong, right? Is that what ur saying, Persian?

Now here is the thing. Let someone dealbreak and ELITE kingdom and see what happens. I guarantee you that Spartans did not inflict the kind of damage to Divinity that Ascension inflicted on us. I guarantee you that Spartans was not as rude and disrespectful to Divinity as Ascension was to us. None of you said a thing to Ascension for what they did to us, but all of you gather together to go after Spartans WHILE THEY ARE IN WAR!! This is why I lost respect for you Persian. You and your buddies act like you fight for what's right, but you don't. You just fight for what's right for you, and that makes you hypocrites and bullies. And Leonidas, when I see you actually chastise someone who is truly ghetto bashing, then your posts wont be such a fricken joke to me.

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

First of all, Spartans did not just come out and offer the terms. They approached me the same way you did, I just had a different answer for them. We had quite a few back and forths about what had happened the previous war, and where I messed up in negotiations. You see, I never even thought about the shady crap you guys pull during negotiations, and how easy it was to get an advantage before war even started. Bart took the time to explain that to me so I would not fall for it again. Just like I have shown respect for Divinity, and Seagulls and others in this game that have helped me learn the new dynamic of war, I show the same respect for Spartans.

Ascension was the kingdom in scenario 1. We had very little chance of beating them, but we thought it was a good opportunity to test our progress as a kingdom, and talking to their monarch I felt it would be a fun and friendly war. Like I said before, they had 18 guys that would log on 20 hours a day, and log off for the same 4 hours everyday. We were still holding our own until they started PK'ing. So yes, Persian I did learn that elite kingdoms will lie, and I learned that they will PK too. But what I also learned is the Utopian Police has no problem with this whatsoever. Elites bashing ghetto's is ur thing, right? Some do it nicely, like you and Seagulls, and others are complete dicks about it like Ascension, but you all do it. That is why no one got too pissed when I mentioned this before. That is why the "White Knights" did not get all up in arms to raze the might Ascension. I mean I did not put in an acre cap, so they had every right to grow. I did not say "no PK" so they had every right to kill off three of my provinces. They did nothing wrong, right? Is that what ur saying, Persian?

Now here is the thing. Let someone dealbreak and ELITE kingdom and see what happens. I guarantee you that Spartans did not inflict the kind of damage to Divinity that Ascension inflicted on us. I guarantee you that Spartans was not as rude and disrespectful to Divinity as Ascension was to us. None of you said a thing to Ascension for what they did to us, but all of you gather together to go after Spartans WHILE THEY ARE IN WAR!! This is why I lost respect for you Persian. You and your buddies act like you fight for what's right, but you don't. You just fight for what's right for you, and that makes you hypocrites and bullies. And Leonidas, when I see you actually chastise someone who is truly ghetto bashing, then your posts wont be such a fricken joke to me.

what? ascension is bad cos your provs died in war? jeez spartans, just stfu and stop making yourselves look even worse and worse..

[Uncle Ed]

Yeah that's it, Lord. Our provinces just died in war. It had nothing to do with you guys knowing when our provinces logged off and went to work or went to sleep, then just sending in 15-20 massacres and kidnapping them, right? Still trying to sell that whole, "We did not PK you, your guys just died" crap, eh? Don't worry man, you elite buddies bought it so the "White Knights" won't touch you. Besides, they are too busy punishing that deal breaking Bart. lol

[khronosschoty]

Yeah that's it, Lord. Our provinces just died in war. It had nothing to do with you guys knowing when our provinces logged off and went to work or went to sleep, then just sending in 15-20 massacres and kidnapping them, right? Still trying to sell that whole, "We did not PK you, your guys just died" crap, eh? Don't worry man, you elite buddies bought it so the "White Knights" won't touch you. Besides, they are too busy punishing that deal breaking Bart. lol

You just like to spew libel and to practice character defamation.

[Runefire]

Yeah that's it, Lord. Our provinces just died in war. It had nothing to do with you guys knowing when our provinces logged off and went to work or went to sleep, then just sending in 15-20 massacres and kidnapping them, right? Still trying to sell that whole, "We did not PK you, your guys just died" crap, eh? Don't worry man, you elite buddies bought it so the "White Knights" won't touch you. Besides, they are too busy punishing that deal breaking Bart. lol

So you went to war and are crying that some of your provinces were killed in that war? Don't go to war then. It is pretty simple.

The situation here is that Spartans made a deal and did not honour it. Just like the real world, there are consequences otherwise deals are meaningless.

[Judge]

Yeah that's it, Lord. Our provinces just died in war. It had nothing to do with you guys knowing when our provinces logged off and went to work or went to sleep, then just sending in 15-20 massacres and kidnapping them, right? Still trying to sell that whole, "We did not PK you, your guys just died" crap, eh? Don't worry man, you elite buddies bought it so the "White Knights" won't touch you. Besides, they are too busy punishing that deal breaking Bart. lol

We have killed quite a few provinces in war as it helps with an attacker or a tm dies. Thats 1 less province to deal with. Its a normal war strategy.

[Uncle Ed]

Uhh Khrono, I think it is you that is practicing character defamation. You are accusing me of lying about someone, but you wont say who or what the lie is. Instead, you just call me libel.

And Runefire, you need to catch up to the conversation bro before commenting, otherwise you just sound like an idiot. There are like 5 pages of people explaining how Spartans made a deal and did not honour it, but thanks for making that clear for those with a learning disability. lol

[Runefire]

Uhh Khrono, I think it is you that is practicing character defamation. You are accusing me of lying about someone, but you wont say who or what the lie is. Instead, you just call me libel.

And Runefire, you need to catch up to the conversation bro before commenting, otherwise you just sound like an idiot. There are like 5 pages of people explaining how Spartans made a deal and did not honour it, but thanks for making that clear for those with a learning disability. lol

I am following along just fine thank you. Maybe you need to catch up though, because then you would understand why no one cares about your ghetto war. Provinces die all the time, boohoo.