Suicide Squad

[jmiedema]

I was under the impression that honor was for the honorable more so than for the strongest. Game guide gives that impression at least, s'pose thats just antiquated though. Ruthless looks to be fighting for thier honor without looking back akin to the way Feint describes himself. When the meter maxes that will be much less possible given the opponent though. Totally thier fault for believing that honor was ever thiers to begin with. A very prima nocta mentality exists. If all kds had 25 provinces some of this behaviour, imo, could be better accepted by those outside of the top 10.

Yea "Honour" is misleading. Really the name should be "Glory" because that is more of what it is. If it were honour, then thief ops wouldn't give any, because they go by unnoticed, and there is no honour among thieves.

Glory resembles what the current honour system is because it is based on conquest and warring which really is what "top honour means" is that you warred a lot and warred other kingdoms who warred a lot. Not always in an "honourable" way.

Also ranks such as Lord, Count, Marquis, prince etc throughout history were given to almost exclusively NOT the most honourable people in a kingdom but to those born into priveledge of families who gained their wealth preying on the weak through slavery and servitude. So lets not pull the whole "they aren't being honourable though!" card.

As far as I know the only diplo they have given to us (a kingdom double their size) is "we will retal 1-1 until you stop and CF" OK... well meter is going to max out eventually so good call?

Again.. we were only going to wave for a bit of honour (expected) in exchange for a cf. Ruthless (lol @ kd theme/name and then crying bully) then get all hot and bothered that a #6 honour kd was getting hit for honour vs a #2 honour kd (surprise?).

Next time secure your CF's. Want to know why we aren't getting vultured? forethought. We knew what size we would be at, and so during wars, eowcf, etc we made CF deals to protect us from the majority of kd's that would be a threat to us once we hit fort/normal. Dealbreaks are one thing. Those are unnacceptable. Not securing CF's with kd's that have an advantage over you when you have something they desire (in this case high honour provinces in the range of half our attacker core) is a mistake that you made, not one that we did. You have noone to blame but yourself for getting hit, and especially noone to blame but yourself for escalating a conflict against a kingdom twice your size instead of taking steps to de-escalate the conflict.

Edit: a lot of this post is written as if you are in Ruthless, though I don't know what kd you are part of. Either way this is written to people in Ruthless that think that somehow they are being bullied by unreasonable people.

[StratOcastle]

Staying small feeding off ghettos you say?

Wars Won / Concluded Wars 4 / 4 Average Opponent Relative Size 102%

Wars Won / Concluded Wars 6 / 6 Average Opponent Relative Size 94%

I just so happen to know one of the guys in Ruthless and you assume too much. Just visit the pages. Factually, jmiedema, you are the bully. That you can do what you're doing isn't the question; just don't call out a small kingdom for fighting it's way up when your stats look like, well, a bully. In other words I have a lower opinion of you than before you posted.

You could change all that by rethinking how you categorize your fellow players and displaying a mutual respect and understanding. Of course they're pissed. Did it occur to you they're retaliating because they aren't bullies themselves?
The mirror only tells the truth, respectfully.

[Ghostfinger]

Yea "Honour" is misleading. Really the name should be "Glory" because that is more of what it is. If it were honour, then thief ops wouldn't give any, because they go by unnoticed, and there is no honour among thieves.

Glory resembles what the current honour system is because it is based on conquest and warring which really is what "top honour means" is that you warred a lot and warred other kingdoms who warred a lot. Not always in an "honourable" way.

Also ranks such as Lord, Count, Marquis, prince etc throughout history were given to almost exclusively NOT the most honourable people in a kingdom but to those born into priveledge of families who gained their wealth preying on the weak through slavery and servitude. So lets not pull the whole "they aren't being honourable though!" card.

As far as I know the only diplo they have given to us (a kingdom double their size) is "we will retal 1-1 until you stop and CF" OK... well meter is going to max out eventually so good call?

Again.. we were only going to wave for a bit of honour (expected) in exchange for a cf. Ruthless (lol @ kd theme/name and then crying bully) then get all hot and bothered that a #6 honour kd was getting hit for honour vs a #2 honour kd (surprise?).

Next time secure your CF's. Want to know why we aren't getting vultured? forethought. We knew what size we would be at, and so during wars, eowcf, etc we made CF deals to protect us from the majority of kd's that would be a threat to us once we hit fort/normal. Dealbreaks are one thing. Those are unnacceptable. Not securing CF's with kd's that have an advantage over you when you have something they desire (in this case high honour provinces in the range of half our attacker core) is a mistake that you made, not one that we did. You have noone to blame but yourself for getting hit, and especially noone to blame but yourself for escalating a conflict against a kingdom twice your size instead of taking steps to de-escalate the conflict.

Edit: a lot of this post is written as if you are in Ruthless, though I don't know what kd you are part of. Either way this is written to people in Ruthless that think that somehow they are being bullied by unreasonable people.

Not at all. I'm merely an invested utopian with little to no friends worth mentioning observing and deciphering the social dynamic in contrast with the belief of what should be. Unlike many of you I've only been playing for about 10 ages and have felt my own ideals shift accordingly in that time. Like many of you I probably wont stop playing until the game self destructs and collapses in on itself.

I simply find it most curious that there is this unwritten law of might makes right. Moreover the factions there in that are created early in an age almost identically to the age before. Where in the competition is so difficult to break into that activity and skill alone just don't cut it. The game is very much an enviroment of intrigue and diplomacy as much as it is a war game. Something that isnt fully realized until your KD has breached the top 15-20 in land size. this allows for some understanding of the decline being seen but like i mentioned, the die hard will do just that.

Someone else mentioned this was how the honor crown was 'won' last age, so it's clearly an accepted practice regardless of the honor definition.

Glory is indeed a fair label replacement for honor. Another good dynamic would be to split oow and in war honor gains as either notoriety or fame. Each giving onto themselves a perception of given vs taken.

Noticing your position in the WW chart (assuming from your staunch beliefs that you are in FS) I see this maxed meter situation as an attempt to reach out for the WW crown as well as the honor crown. Quite an ambitious stretch for the ever coveted imaginary trophies the game provides which in themselves lead to a type of fame and notoriety. May it earn you the fame and notoriety it is deserving of.

[Loiso]

Staying small feeding off ghettos you say?

Wars Won / Concluded Wars 4 / 4 Average Opponent Relative Size 102%

Wars Won / Concluded Wars 6 / 6 Average Opponent Relative Size 94%

I just so happen to know one of the guys in Ruthless and you assume too much. Just visit the pages. Factually, jmiedema, you are the bully. That you can do what you're doing isn't the question; just don't call out a small kingdom for fighting it's way up when your stats look like, well, a bully. In other words I have a lower opinion of you than before you posted.

You could change all that by rethinking how you categorize your fellow players and displaying a mutual respect and understanding. Of course they're pissed. Did it occur to you they're retaliating because they aren't bullies themselves?
The mirror only tells the truth, respectfully.

Just FYI this relative size comes from one silly war when some KD decided that it will pay out to wave us hiding behind 50% declaration limit. They were wrong. Other then that... maybe you need to check with KD we warred how we bullied them? Factually, you should get some facts before making claims. :P

EDIT: and as it was said before CF deal was always on the table. I made sure that Ruthless monarch is aware of this. They decision was to retal hits "1 for 1"... thats up to them we can respect this decision to fight back. But then... why complain on consequences of your own actions? Ineed the mirror could help alot :P

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

Staying small feeding off ghettos you say?

Wars Won / Concluded Wars 4 / 4 Average Opponent Relative Size 102%

Wars Won / Concluded Wars 6 / 6 Average Opponent Relative Size 94%

I just so happen to know one of the guys in Ruthless and you assume too much. Just visit the pages. Factually, jmiedema, you are the bully. That you can do what you're doing isn't the question; just don't call out a small kingdom for fighting it's way up when your stats look like, well, a bully. In other words I have a lower opinion of you than before you posted.

You could change all that by rethinking how you categorize your fellow players and displaying a mutual respect and understanding. Of course they're pissed. Did it occur to you they're retaliating because they aren't bullies themselves?
The mirror only tells the truth, respectfully.

you have been spewing a lot of bs claims about fs lately, completely without any real knowledge of the actual situations.. i have no idea what ruthless think, but we are ready to cf them as soon as they are willing to, and we dont have any demands for a cf or anything - this has also been expressed to their monarch a few times both by myself & our monarch, but apparently they want to keep fighting..

p.s. just as i was typing this post, we have recieved a pm from their kd members asking us why we wouldnt cf - now i believe their monarch isnt very honest with his kd about the diplo between us..

[crease]

why doesnt FS have their own BS thread? Offtopicnessnessness should go. war is still sn0re. SS done nothing to try and change what i said earlier:

more likely scenario is they wd up honour, Econ game is all but over already, and SS will never match WsK's UB count

WsK up ~12k honour and SS down 7k with SS wave coming up shortly. Does anybody care about anything else?

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

why doesnt FS have their own BS thread? Offtopicnessnessness should go. war is still sn0re. SS done nothing to try and change what i said earlier:



WsK up ~12k honour and SS down 7k. Acres mean little, this is not a whoring war.

ppl want drama, you make none.. claim your thread & post something!

[Ghostfinger]

why doesnt FS have their own BS thread? Offtopicnessnessness should go. war is still sn0re. SS done nothing to try and change what i said earlier:

WsK up ~12k honour and SS down 7k. Acres mean little, this is not a whoring war.

Because FS' honor crown is directly related to the victor of your war. Ruthless is a sampling of things to come. Will the winner accept being honor farmed. Hell, even the loser will be enough to get the job done. So its an win win for them since the chart isnt moving beyond u three KDs. Beyond that Sampuan speaks true. The thread got boring.

'Game of Crowns'

[Band of Horses]

Explore your entire explo pool day one of eowcf and GL vs FS.

[Smitty87]

It's simple.

Instead of kds crying over being waved and honor farmed by their tms getting hit do something about it. Every kd is doing the same thing- exploring their tms above core to get them ub and win wars that way. Doing that you run the risk of exactly this happening.

Why don't you explore up stackers also so you can defend yourself?

Two kds war and don't kd the way I see it. Divinity and FS.

Instead of having 1k attackers and 4.5k tms they explore up their attackers thus becoming bigger and getting better wars.

Your fault for having big tms , small attackers and being unable to do anything about it.

[crease]

It's simple.

Instead of kds crying over being waved and honor farmed by their tms getting hit do something about it. Every kd is doing the same thing- exploring their tms above core to get them ub and win wars that way. Doing that you run the risk of exactly this happening.

Why don't you explore up stackers also so you can defend yourself?

Two kds war and don't kd the way I see it. Divinity and FS.

Instead of having 1k attackers and 4.5k tms they explore up their attackers thus becoming bigger and getting better wars.

Your fault for having big tms , small attackers and being unable to do anything about it.

Our TM's havent been biggest since 2nd war of age lol, nature ofour setup means ppl try and mess with TM's early

[Earth]

Out of all the offtopicness the bs about honor vs glory was to much..... as a group we should just all agree to leave political correctness out of game mechanics. :p ...anyway how bout that war going on between wsk and ss. Any opinions on who will be the victor?

[jmiedema]

Easy, WsK will win this easy. Just a matter of how much honour SS wants to lose before that happens really.

[citadela01]

Staying small feeding off ghettos you say?

Wars Won / Concluded Wars 4 / 4 Average Opponent Relative Size 102%

Wars Won / Concluded Wars 6 / 6 Average Opponent Relative Size 94%

I just so happen to know one of the guys in Ruthless and you assume too much. Just visit the pages. Factually, jmiedema, you are the bully. That you can do what you're doing isn't the question; just don't call out a small kingdom for fighting it's way up when your stats look like, well, a bully. In other words I have a lower opinion of you than before you posted.

You could change all that by rethinking how you categorize your fellow players and displaying a mutual respect and understanding. Of course they're pissed. Did it occur to you they're retaliating because they aren't bullies themselves?
The mirror only tells the truth, respectfully.

You talk a lot of crap Strato, while i do like your eloquence and your cryptic posts are often amusing do try to put some thought into actual content as well, form alone is not enough.

Are we not allowed to pursue goals in this game ? Every high honor KD in range refused to war despite our best efforts. Our only option is to farm honor oow.

Ruthless has resource we want, this is a war game, we took it by force just like designed of this game intended to. They had to option to tank initial hits and ask for CF and they would get it, just like multiple other KD's did.
Every KD in this game is occasionally forced to concede some of their resources to stronger oponents, there is no exception to this rule.

It was their right and their choice to escalate conflict rather than to concede us some honor for free in exchange for CF.

[Ghostfinger]

You talk a lot of crap Strato, while i do like your eloquence and your cryptic posts are often amusing do try to put some thought into actual content as well, form alone is not enough.

Are we not allowed to pursue goals in this game ? Every high honor KD in range refused to war despite our best efforts. Our only option is to farm honor oow.

Ruthless has resource we want, this is a war game, we took it by force just like designed of this game intended to. They had to option to tank initial hits and ask for CF and they would get it, just like multiple other KD's did.
Every KD in this game is occasionally forced to concede some of their resources to stronger oponents, there is no exception to this rule.

It was their right and their choice to escalate conflict rather than to concede us some honor for free in exchange for CF.

Couldn't their choice to fight change the honor landscape irrevocably? If it goes to war you stand to gain much less honor than you would taking out the players of this SS vs wSk war. How long before you'd feel the need to ask them for a CF because of them wasting your time? ***Never mind, i see it ended***

The only KDs out of the top 5 you haven't warred are these two and pyros I believe. So it's logical that wSk and SS would fight since they are equivalent sizes. Ascension probably didnt want a rematch for reasons stated in the earlier pages of this very thread (Unwilling to repeat a loss). Pyros weren't in the top 5 when this all started up i believe, but I'm not sure... Regardless it's a no brainer why that wouldnt happen.

@earth: Why should political correctness not be involved in a game who's mechanics are as motivated by political diplomacy as it is by anything else? Besides, it was jmiedema that brought up glory. My comments were focused on the social impact of trends vs expectation.

In game politics should be more emphasized rather than diminished. It's a game changer, that's the lesson we learn from the Ruthless example.

"If woody had gone to the police in the first place none of this would have happened."

(gone to the police = cf)