Dirty KD raze-killing into our war

[PinkCat]

All of you guys are missing the point, there should almost never be an instance where a kingdom is razekilled out of war, a few random hits is not a situation that warrants that. Especially in a game that is already on it's last legs and can't keep players as it is.

On top the fact that people razekilling out of war are useless human beings that shouldn't even be allowed to live, the fact that the culture of the game is so centered around either being a top kingdom or perferming fellatio for top kingdoms makes it incredibly hypocritical. Everyone says it's a failure of diplomacy, but often times it really isn't. Top kingdoms think they have diplomatic skills, but if they were playing in ghetto kingdoms they wouldn't have any better diplomatic dealings than most ghettos. Your "diplomatic skills" are basically a good old boys club where no one wants to rock the boat because you are competing for something. Go into a ghetto where you aren't competing for anything other than top 100 and all the other kingdoms you deal with will have no reason to even listen to your diplomatic advances. Be in a ghetto kingdom that gets fed on by a much larger kingdom, and all your diplomatic "skills" will be for naught. Sure, if you can convince your kd to retal and everything, you might be able to screw the bigger kingdom over, but it won't be due to any diplomatic skill that you have.

It was a failure of diplomacy though. That is what you don't get. Diplomatic problems that arose here:

1. Hitting out of an active hostile
2. Retaling the retal instead of PMing the kd and accepting the punishment
3. Not negotiating with the kingdom they retal'd because OP's kingdom wanted to be big, bad bullies.

You may say razekilling in war isn't justified, but it is. It could have been prevented if any of those above 3 problems had been dealt with in a different way and/or a message was sent to the monarch.

As a side note, your notion of "razekilling is making players leave the game" is ridiculous. It's not and you should stop suggesting it. Making a new province isn't even a big deal and its only 24 hours protection.

[Squee311]

As a side note, your notion of "razekilling is making players leave the game" is ridiculous. It's not and you should stop suggesting it. Making a new province isn't even a big deal and its only 24 hours protection.

72 hour protection when in war. 24 oow.

[shadoweminence]

It was a failure of diplomacy though. That is what you don't get. Diplomatic problems that arose here:

1. Hitting out of an active hostile
2. Retaling the retal instead of PMing the kd and accepting the punishment
3. Not negotiating with the kingdom they retal'd because OP's kingdom wanted to be big, bad bullies.

You may say razekilling in war isn't justified, but it is. It could have been prevented if any of those above 3 problems had been dealt with in a different way and/or a message was sent to the monarch.

As a side note, your notion of "razekilling is making players leave the game" is ridiculous. It's not and you should stop suggesting it. Making a new province isn't even a big deal and its only 24 hours protection.

Nope, raze killing is still unjustified. Saying raze killing into war is justified is like saying killing your ex because she cheated on you is justified.
Also, razekilling is making players leave the game. I've seen it happen for ages. Countless people in my past KDs have said "F**k this game,I'm done". Game is barely fun to play at this point. Something as irritating as getting PKed can make push someone over the edge and quit.

[StratOcastle]

I agree. The point is that that's how it works when you bully people. Small kingdom they thought they could take advantage of fired back. The question is would you run to help them? Or did they have to help themselves? It's that simple.

[Jukelius]

It's dangerous if razekills into wars are accepted this easily. If two additional stupid retals lead to razekills into war, how it is different if whoring kingdom hits you and because of size difference you feel that the hits were unfair and you are entitled of some retal. According to many, it should be completely fine then to raze kill whoring(or any larger) kingdom province as a retal later in age when they are in war. We already know how there is lots of polices starting razes if you do that. Would there be anybody standing up for the razer in that case saying that it was stupid of whoring kingdom to hit kingdom who is 3x smaller? No, the small kingdom razing into big kingdoms war get loads of heat about it. Anybody can see the double standards here.

Razekill into war is probably the most extreme punishment you can deliver in this game, and if they are done too easily with communitys approval, it's like opening a pandoras box which eventually leads more issues when people start to rk into war as normal practise. Rk is completely ok by the rules, and only thing that regulates it is the community.

[Aranfein]

While I agree that it's a severe punishment, that I personally wouldn't use as a monarch, the fact that it was in response to someone claiming hostile while "parking" their troops out vs a kd that retaliated that hit, then to add injury thought it smart to double a retal, STILL from a live hostile.. Then jump to war..

Not only did they create hostile vs a smaller kd they clearly had no respect for but to further show that, they appeared arrogant/superior in diplo, while being in a compromising situation with relations on 2 fronts.. They should have apologised or not have run to war before making sure the diplo was sorted, there is nothing wrong with the victims reaction, they reacted when their opponent was weak enough to handle but still well within the timeline for the offence..

Wasn't like they did the revenge a week or more after, in which case I'm sure the public wouldn't have approved either.

About the top, if you refer to the FS case it was completely different, not only had things happened weeks back for some of the kds joining in, but it was an organised gang bang into war by multiply kds.. I doubt very much the top had helped if FS or any other top kd was in the exact same situation as the posters kd.

- That said, it is a fine line that we need to watch closely.

[Jukelius]

I don't refer into any specific case. And of course my post is also speculative in nature. There are lots of other ways to retal, if you are hit from hostile, then retal into hostile, especially if you have plenty of time to do that. If you wait until war to retal, then you pay back earlier offence by doing greater offence by yourself.

In this case there was plenty of time to do the revenge especially considering this whole thing was about two hits, which is very minor thing. I dont know about the diplo used and I dont really care, I'm only interested on how easily razekill was used and how easily it was accepted as being an ok punishment.

[Aranfein]

But they didn't wait, if you look at their "news" you will see they ran to war after the double (from what I understand), and you know as well as I do if they retaliate the double hit again they will get farmed, as was posted earlier.." if they had we would have gone for them instead"..

They didn't really leave the small with any other option after diplo failed.

You gotta read the diplo that's posted in this thread, seeing that's was part of what lead to it, otherwise your argument on this case is basically void.

Not saying the point you made about raze kill is void as I agree with it being a lame thing to do.

[Crackalackin]

But they didn't wait, if you look at their "news" you will see they ran to war after the double (from what I understand)

I wouldn't call pushing the button 32 hours after the last retal was made running away to war.

[Palem]

Also, razekilling is making players leave the game. I've seen it happen for ages. Countless people in my past KDs have said "F**k this game,I'm done". Game is barely fun to play at this point. Something as irritating as getting PKed can make push someone over the edge and quit.

Same could be said about kingdoms who get their retals retalled 2x by bigger kingdoms that they don't really have a lot of options to defend themselves against. In fact, I'd be willing to bet quite a load of money that bottomfeeding like what you were doing has caused a magnitude of order more players to quit than razekilling into wars has, so I suggest you step down from this high and mighty "They're making people quit!" trip you seem to be on.

According to many, it should be completely fine then to raze kill whoring(or any larger) kingdom province as a retal later in age when they are in war.

Yep, and that kingdom is completely justified in doing whatever they want to the razekilling kingdom after their war has ended.

[Jukelius]

Exactly. This is just what I'm referring with the pandoras box. It easily runs completely out of control.

[MyNameIsMatija]

What do you suggest then? How are we supposed to prohibit this KD that is raze killing the other KD from raze killing provinces? What will be their punishment? Bunch of bad looks in the forum?

[jwuzi]

Exactly. This is just what I'm referring with the pandoras box. It easily runs completely out of control.

Don't **** play in order to avoid being **** played...

[StratOcastle]

The alternatives for next time could be -

1- negotiated wave. To park troops offer to hit oor and collect gold after war.
2- eat ms. It's not that bad.
3- park in your enemy provinces.
4- park in your allies provinces. Get one.
5- roll the dice by randoming rather than waving one kingdom. I won't do that because.

[Bart of Sparta]

It's fairly simple. Razing people that raze others costs resources. People are only willing to spend resources if they get something in return for it or if the people in question they are helping are their friends. Top-KDs generally don't care enough to really help ghetto-tier. So if you want help for these cases u need to ally with other people in your tier and hope they help you.