Undead/Merchant Build?

[2Utopian]

If a kd spends a lot of time warring ud tact > merchant and I don't think its even close. What kind of tpa and or WTs / rax are you ending up running with merchant? I completely agree with tadpole's assessment that divinity is an outlier where merchant can be used to greater effect then the majority of the server. You have more pump time on bigger acres with beneficial cfs and a strong surrounding kd allowing lower draft, and provinces like this will be properly positioned in the kd. Most other places it will be a really weak choice. Even in divinity I don't think it's optimal.

I also support orc clerics, you really need to keep your army out all the time and you will have a hell of a time replacing losses without cleric. In war you need to remain threatening post 24 to 48 hours. No matter what noobium spouts orcs need some sustain. Warrior would be my second choice on orcs.

[Shai]

If a kd spends a lot of time warring ud tact > merchant and I don't think its even close. What kind of tpa and or WTs / rax are you ending up running with merchant? I completely agree with tadpole's assessment that divinity is an outlier where merchant can be used to greater effect then the majority of the server. You have more pump time on bigger acres with beneficial cfs and a strong surrounding kd allowing lower draft, and provinces like this will be properly positioned in the kd. Most other places it will be a really weak choice. Even in divinity I don't think it's optimal.

I also support orc clerics, you really need to keep your army out all the time and you will have a hell of a time replacing losses without cleric. In war you need to remain threatening post 24 to 48 hours. No matter what noobium spouts orcs need some sustain. Warrior would be my second choice on orcs.

orc cleric is the best choice for orcs. especially next age with such powerful elites. run them in combo with undead warriors and 6-7 faes and the losses u can create on a single province is massive and your own losses very low.

As i stated earlier, we ran undead merchants in Divinity last age when we warred in the warring tier and i found them the strongest and most sustainable. they surpased orcs already after 24h. As for tpa and wts, I been running 4 raw and 20% min wts all age on my undead together with 20% forts and 15-20% hospitals. 10% rax initially. once in war i replace the hosps for tgs and possible more rax (15 tgs 5 rax). with 100% thievery sci u stop most ops.

with he ud/merch u accumulate tons of spec creds since u quad hit most of the time. after 3-4 days of warring u use the spec credits to boost def up again and make urself only single tapable while u keep quadding. trick with undeads is to hit the enemy elites home with pf and bg up for max losses. the gap u create every wave will be very notable after 24-48h.

[Tadpole]

with he ud/merch u accumulate tons of spec creds since u quad hit most of the time. after 3-4 days of warring u use the spec credits to boost def up again and make urself only single tapable while u keep quadding. trick with undeads is to hit the enemy elites home with pf and bg up for max losses. the gap u create every wave will be very notable after 24-48h.

I'm sure more credits can be nice. But I doubt its worth the space saved from other personalities.

And as for keeping losses up, that's hardly a UD-unique strat :p One could even argue if you base your whole kd setup on it, why not use orc (cleric if you worry about sustain)? Higher off casualties. If that's the argument.

[Blue Mass]

Why are people still talking about this? Merchant is gone move on and get your head in the game.

[noobium]

Orcs and Undeads are both races that shouldn't idle with their troops most of the time, so why would you lose a ton of offense from armies sitting at home?

Besides, with Cleric -30% loss means little, and undead defensive losses are still high (and more so because they usually do not want hospitals). If I caught an Orc/Cleric with troops home, I'd still target them to kill offense in the same way I'd target any other non-turtle attacker.

Back when cleric had -50% losses and +1 gen, they were a viable pick... and even then, they weren't that dominant. When Cleric was dominant, it was better on races like Dwarf with huge economic durability and turtle ability, not Orcs that presume high offense and using it consistently. Back when Avian had 6/3 armies or the equivalent thereof, Cleric could make sense, but it was still pretty meh.

I don't know why this is an issue when Warrior is viable in age 68. I'd rather pick the personality that gives better peak offense, more offense per retrained troop / merc / pony, and isn't chewing up population space and nw.
I'd still rather have Tactician for easy speed. It's not like Orcs are hurting for offense next age, so the Warrior offense is superfluous. One of the worst things for Orc is oos armies in war, and Tactician can avert that w/out slowing your wavetimes too much.

So uh, yeah, keep spouting the DURRR SUSTAIN meme because you suck at managing your armies. Idiots in this game keep lining up for that, must be great to line up ghettos for failure age after age.

[MyNameIsMatija]

The irony in your last statement...

[Shai]

I'm sure more credits can be nice. But I doubt its worth the space saved from other personalities.

And as for keeping losses up, that's hardly a UD-unique strat :p One could even argue if you base your whole kd setup on it, why not use orc (cleric if you worry about sustain)? Higher off casualties. If that's the argument.

Because -75% offensive losses is so far superior to -30%. As for defensive losses gb prot reduce them heavily. there is no gb prot reduction for offensive losses. I also use 10-15% hospitals on my undead. Orcs work well in combo with UDs but never the less, 24-48h later the undead offense have worn out so much less its extremely noticable.

Undead will always outsustain the other attackers by far. Add the plague, no starvation and so forth it is just so much better at this stage when they no longer have the science penalty. animate dead is also an awesome spell. People can say this or that but I base my choice of the undead merchant on my own playing experience. and ud/merchant with heavy hosps and forts just outplayed anything the last two ages for me, both in the warring tier as a core attacker and as a cow in the whoring top. when u hit another dorf cow all home with 15% hosps on him and kill 11-12 times more troops then u lose yourself, its not even a fight.

for the upcoming age with merchant gone undead tact/wh/warrior are all solid combos depending on your kd strat. I tend to believe sustainablity and econ is everything so I still think orc cleric and undead warrior on 15% hosps is the most powerful combo. even for silly thing like arranged wars with no hostile period.

of course there will be many other interesting combos out there. a good kd can play 3-4 different setups and do it extremely well.

[Tadpole]

Not saying UD is/was bad. I've ran plenty of UD cores to success. As did AMA. I do think you overestimate merch-in-war though Shai.

Also ran cleric cores to success. Possibly to honor crown. Dun remember. But with nice output nonetheless, so your chill on the "idiot" remarks noobium.

[Shai]

Not saying UD is/was bad. I've ran plenty of UD cores to success. As did AMA. I do think you overestimate merch-in-war though Shai.

Also ran cleric cores to success. Possibly to honor crown. Dun remember. But with nice output nonetheless, so your chill on the "idiot" remarks noobium.

Well merchs are so good cause they allow u to come into war with more sci and much more gc then ur opponent (unless u do something wrong). They also make whoring alot easier since gc is ur biggest constraint and thus, u outwhore the others and also come into war bigger and stronger.

People seems to think merchant is useless in war but a) the spec credit bonus is better then u think if u use it to accumulate specs for later in war and b) if u are really wpa pumped u can build up a good peasant base later in war and use tog to get an econ advantage. If u are the only merchant, chances are u get so much fb attempts even a kickass wpa wont help. If you are 20 merchants there is no way they can fb down all of you. Usually merchants makes instant dragon slaying worth it cause the room for peasants the slaying creates always pays off soon enough.

Now merchants are removed so I guess the discussion is sort of moot :P

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

Orcs and Undeads are both races that shouldn't idle with their troops most of the time, so why would you lose a ton of offense from armies sitting at home?

Besides, with Cleric -30% loss means little, and undead defensive losses are still high (and more so because they usually do not want hospitals). If I caught an Orc/Cleric with troops home, I'd still target them to kill offense in the same way I'd target any other non-turtle attacker.

Back when cleric had -50% losses and +1 gen, they were a viable pick... and even then, they weren't that dominant. When Cleric was dominant, it was better on races like Dwarf with huge economic durability and turtle ability, not Orcs that presume high offense and using it consistently. Back when Avian had 6/3 armies or the equivalent thereof, Cleric could make sense, but it was still pretty meh.

I don't know why this is an issue when Warrior is viable in age 68. I'd rather pick the personality that gives better peak offense, more offense per retrained troop / merc / pony, and isn't chewing up population space and nw.
I'd still rather have Tactician for easy speed. It's not like Orcs are hurting for offense next age, so the Warrior offense is superfluous. One of the worst things for Orc is oos armies in war, and Tactician can avert that w/out slowing your wavetimes too much.

So uh, yeah, keep spouting the DURRR SUSTAIN meme because you suck at managing your armies. Idiots in this game keep lining up for that, must be great to line up ghettos for failure age after age.

seriously man, you were helping all ghettos a lot more when you kept yourself away from strategy forums.. you are just a poorer example of vines, or this new blue mass..

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

for the upcoming age with merchant gone undead tact/wh/warrior are all solid combos depending on your kd strat. I tend to believe sustainablity and econ is everything so I still think orc cleric and undead warrior on 15% hosps is the most powerful combo. even for silly thing like arranged wars with no hostile period.

this is the most simple and best advice for anyone who would require help for picking their setup..

[Bart of Sparta]

Disagree. Tact a lot.better than warrior. Tact on UD allows for 8 hour attacking, while off generally aint a prob.

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

Disagree. Tact a lot.better than warrior. Tact on UD allows for 8 hour attacking, while off generally aint a prob.

i would assume ghettos who need help with their setup picks, would be better off with basic 12h cycles.. tact is definitely a very strong pick for undead, if not the best..

[noobium]

Well merchs are so good cause they allow u to come into war with more sci and much more gc then ur opponent (unless u do something wrong). They also make whoring alot easier since gc is ur biggest constraint and thus, u outwhore the others and also come into war bigger and stronger.

People seems to think merchant is useless in war but a) the spec credit bonus is better then u think if u use it to accumulate specs for later in war and b) if u are really wpa pumped u can build up a good peasant base later in war and use tog to get an econ advantage. If u are the only merchant, chances are u get so much fb attempts even a kickass wpa wont help. If you are 20 merchants there is no way they can fb down all of you. Usually merchants makes instant dragon slaying worth it cause the room for peasants the slaying creates always pays off soon enough.

Now merchants are removed so I guess the discussion is sort of moot :P

I'd prefer Orc/Merch to Undead/Merch
Undead's hat is supposed to be big sustainable offense, but that offense comes at the price of population space, and an implied difficulty retaining adequate defense (presuming that you would expect an undead/merchant to take lots of hits in a long war). That gets in the way of using spec credits during war, and also interferes with relying on undead peasants so tog is a lot weaker in war.

The spec and build credit bonuses are (or were, anyway) a large reason why Orc/Merch is perfectly fine in long wars compared to Orc/Cleric... the merch has a far easier time keeping their acres built, and the spec credits let you retrain at the time of your choosing. Cleric locks you into retaining offense and offense only, even if it is elite offense.
I have yet to encounter a war where the Cleric's sustainability has made a major difference one way or another. Undead might be a different story, but countless Undead kingdoms get busted every age.

In any case it's more of a selection bias than anything else. More kingdoms pick Cleric because they're "supposed" to, then engineer favorable diplo with each other so they have a leg up on charting honor. They take this rigged diplomatic system and enforce a meta of arranged wars that are staggered in their favor, combined with ****playing, and take it as proof that their flawed notions of correct play are rooted in their choice of personality. (Though, if you are engaging in diplomatic ****playing as FS does, Cleric does have a few additional advantages...)

I don't see the big fuss, because at -30% Cleric isn't even that much of a bonus. If I'm in a situation where I want to retain troop count that much, or I want to cure plague easily, build the damned hospitals.

FS is easily the most overrated kingdom on the server

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

I'd prefer Orc/Merch to Undead/Merch
Undead's hat is supposed to be big sustainable offense, but that offense comes at the price of population space, and an implied difficulty retaining adequate defense (presuming that you would expect an undead/merchant to take lots of hits in a long war). That gets in the way of using spec credits during war, and also interferes with relying on undead peasants so tog is a lot weaker in war.

The spec and build credit bonuses are (or were, anyway) a large reason why Orc/Merch is perfectly fine in long wars compared to Orc/Cleric... the merch has a far easier time keeping their acres built, and the spec credits let you retrain at the time of your choosing. Cleric locks you into retaining offense and offense only, even if it is elite offense.
I have yet to encounter a war where the Cleric's sustainability has made a major difference one way or another. Undead might be a different story, but countless Undead kingdoms get busted every age.

In any case it's more of a selection bias than anything else. More kingdoms pick Cleric because they're "supposed" to, then engineer favorable diplo with each other so they have a leg up on charting honor. They take this rigged diplomatic system and enforce a meta of arranged wars that are staggered in their favor, combined with ****playing, and take it as proof that their flawed notions of correct play are rooted in their choice of personality. (Though, if you are engaging in diplomatic ****playing as FS does, Cleric does have a few additional advantages...)

I don't see the big fuss, because at -30% Cleric isn't even that much of a bonus. If I'm in a situation where I want to retain troop count that much, or I want to cure plague easily, build the damned hospitals.

FS is easily the most overrated kingdom on the server

id like to thank you for your kind words first, bishop really made the quickest edit ive ever seen!

you really dont know what you are talking about - you say arranged wars and diplo stuff as a positive for cleric, while it is completely reverse & cleric shines in non-arranged conflicts.. i have pointed out several times already, as soon as a non-cleric core gets waved (which is also the biggest drawback for ud warrior cores, who often run 0 hosps) you lose up to %15-20 offense against a properly organized kd which is completely unmanagable..

you have also mentioned that -%30 losses reduction is too few and it was MERELY comparable when it had -%50 losses and +1 gen, while it was the ONLY choice for any attacker with those bonuses including undeads.. taking it down to -%30 only made it in line with other combos, and made non-cleric undead picks better than undead clerics..

the biggest sign of noobs in the game, is how much they value the numbers on paper.. yeah, warrior has a LOT of offense, and tactician has very fast attacks - both are one-trick ponies who will immediately lose the war if they cannot win it within the first 24h.. yeah you will beat some ghetto within 24h, but none of the competitive kds will be beaten within this time frame.. what cleric has though, is the biggest utility bonus in the game which is not shown on paper - losses reduction.. it is even bigger than 'train elites with credits', because of the obvious reason - sustaining is always better than ability to retrain..

im pretty sure ANY combo can be made to work with some good play, we could beat many kds with orc mystics too - does that mean its a viable pick? what matters when picking a kd setup, is how many different scenarios does the particular setup covers with the notion of giving you enough counters to let you fight on equal grounds..