Age 71 Proposed Changes Suggestions

[Dom31]

Hi There, would bringing back Orcs get leet creds for successful trad march be possible? Also, going old school how about bring back Dark Elves (DE)?

[Alleria]

Ok so you boost offense but leave def alone. I get that being unbreakable shouldn't be a thing when a heavy attacker and t/m are the same size but boosting it that much without boosting def makes this upcoming age the age of attackers. I don't think anyone should have over a 13 attack.

Elf needs to be 0/9 def spec

Avian needs to lose the -15% casualties

Dwarf should be 15% BE

Human should lose the -10% casualties and have a -5% BE instead

Orc is good to go

Ud make it -20% science effectiveness. And add -10% wpa.

Faery get rid of the -5% population.

Halfling could do with not running +2 ospec. Elite change to 6/9. Take away -5% BE

Addressing the wpa issue. Make wizards trainable like thieves. Or have mystics start with a 2.5 wpa instead of 1 wpa. If made trainable you would have guilds increase spell effects (damage, duration)

War hero should lose the +10% gains and be given to tactician instead.

Mystic should be given +1mana per tick (all times)

New spell mystic only. Frozen lands - adds 3 hours to the attack time when attacked.

If no increase in def by military units why not increase how much forts give. Make them 3% bonus, if your running 15% forts you have a 45% increase in dme.

[Bart of Sparta]

Let's just sim some stuff based on current changes:

Say week 4-5 of the age

UD/WH
Viscount
12 epa, 3 ospa, 15 horses(very much doable with some good randoming with WS = 237 opa RAW.

Now let's multiply:

7,5% payrate, 10% sci, 5% fana, 15% TG, 12% from honor: = 380 opa.

And this isn't even a deeply drafted province.

Orc/Warrior:
Baron

15 epa + 15 horses: 225 raw opa

11.5% sci, 7.5% payrate, 10% BL, 10% warrior, 15% TGs, 4% honor = 400 opa.

Would like to emphasize that a homes-pumped orc/warrior could easily get 500 opa or more.

This simply means that Orc/UD with decent drafting can double-tap a fully turtled faery or elf.

[Minty]

That is why I suggest toning down offense elite values. Make the act of breaking a TM more of an expense. I think 11point offense on Orc more reasonable than increasing numbers. It seems really weird to me that players like Hawk and Zauper are so incredibly disconnected to the game that they suggest increasing overall offense.

Orc 11p (13 with horses) > UD (10.5p on 60% elites/40%offspecs) > Human 10p (12 with horses) > Dwarf (9p, 11 with horses) > Avian (10p elites but lowest due to no horses)

Maybe make undead horses 50% as strong. They have plague and longevity, they shouldnt be top offense.

[Avenger]

Let's just sim some stuff based on current changes:

Say week 4-5 of the age

UD/WH
Viscount
12 epa, 3 ospa, 15 horses(very much doable with some good randoming with WS = 237 opa RAW.

Now let's multiply:

7,5% payrate, 10% sci, 5% fana, 15% TG, 12% from honor: = 380 opa.

And this isn't even a deeply drafted province.

Orc/Warrior:
Baron

15 epa + 15 horses: 225 raw opa

11.5% sci, 7.5% payrate, 10% BL, 10% warrior, 15% TGs, 4% honor = 400 opa.

Would like to emphasize that a homes-pumped orc/warrior could easily get 500 opa or more.

This simply means that Orc/UD with decent drafting can double-tap a fully turtled faery or elf.

Orc max military sci is 12%, Undead 9.75%. All those numbers seem pretty hopeful with the diminishing returns on sci.

[dreaku]

i'd like to propose some new spells and a race immunities system to them:

spells, effects&immunities

asf's wall of text - target is freezed in time unable to any action until reading it's done - immune: orc. they're illiterate.
zauper's ascension - : the target prov cannot attack or conduct any aggressive action due to it's transfer to a higher, better and more chillaxed plane of existence - immune: elves. they're immortal so they're not so easily impressed by any newcomer god.
proteus ego - the target prov me drops 20% cause .. "we can take them anyway"... - immune: dwarfs. their main concern being food they're too low on maslow's pyramid to care about ego.
bart's shadiness - target instantly losses 20% of it's thieves: "we can learn more there" - immune halfers. obviously you cannot teach a halfer anything new about those things.
elit's bad english - all intel is 50% accurate due to language barrier for for x hours - immune undeads, wtf they care about english??
benjamin's podcast - when pressing attack, target is experiencing strange delays as ooopses: "you're hangover and you cannot attack right now. get a beer first", "you're too sober to attack", "not high enough to complete the action" - immune: humans, meh too much tv, internet and vice etc already
korps argument - mages refuse to work before they thoroughly debate pros and cons of ... everything - immune: feary discrete and shy you know, they don't get into arguments.
octo's confession - burden by the sudden guilt poured into they're ears peasants leave by a rate of 25% per tic. also no births are recorded. - immune: avians. birds don't have ears right?? and they don't give birth either.

[Persain]

Say week 4-5 of the age
12 epa, 3 ospa, 15 horses(very much doable with some good randoming with WS = 237 opa RAW.

in the past u couldnt get much over 50% leets with 0 offensive losses. with 25% losses and double converts i expect u wont be able to get above 75% leet which is 10-5 not 12-3, so offense will be lower. Note, thats 15 off/acre and a 15 off/acre war isn't going to happen for most kds almost anytime in the age. ( you need max science and 30% homes to get 15 epa on only 3 wpa 2 tpa 4 ppa...thats not happening week 4-5)


Similarlly

Would like to emphasize that a homes-pumped orc/warrior could easily get 500 opa or more.

is not with a viable in war build. sim-ing a prov to get max numbers doesnt really help. i mean a similar full leet dwarf could sit on 375 dpa and 450 opa but its not reasonably usefull. Thing is too the dwarf has to be ~10% larger in acres which means it is even more "Scary"

[joeblogs]

Even though these are just the proposed changes does it beg the question of why play TM? Would anyone even bother to play a mystic with these changes? Is there any point in crafting great WPA and TPA just to get 2x smashed by some Orc or UD from way over any def you have regardless of your size.

It just seems to me like the push for attacking and high leet values, is shifting the game into a major slug fest. I loved the push for more hyrbids, but this is almost making that angle unplayable. Sure people will disagree with this statement, but damn why not a 25 man orc/wh kd or UD kd. Why bother with anything else.

[hav0k]

I agree with the sentiment of "why bother playing T/M?" and Orc/UD being OP with their elites.

On the whole, I am rather disappointed with these changes. I feel like it's a mixture of last age and like Age 61; nothing revolutionary about any of it, at all. I was pretty excited about fresh blood coming in and shaking things up, but it appears we're just in for small tweaks and recycling what's been done before.

There are some good suggestions in here about things that would legit shake up the game, like increasing wage costs for elites (making an all-elite army difficult to maintain). We need more of those things to keep the game interesting.

Also, I'm not really seeing how these changes are going to reinvigorate the strategy element; as many have said before me, it'll be the age of orc/UD smash. You can run halfling if you're a sadist, but be prepared to each dirt and lose all your thieves anyway.

[Persain]

There are some good suggestions in here about things that would legit shake up the game, like increasing wage costs for elites (making an all-elite army difficult to maintain). We need more of those things to keep the game interesting.

First......they already do. leets cost more gc/tick than specs.


Second,

Also, I'm not really seeing how these changes are going to reinvigorate the strategy element; as many have said before me, it'll be the age of orc/UD smash..

and

Even though these are just the proposed changes does it beg the question of why play TM? Would anyone even bother to play a mystic with these changes? Is there any point in crafting great WPA and TPA just to get 2x smashed by some Orc or UD from way over any def you have regardless of your size.

It just seems to me like the push for attacking and high leet values, is shifting the game into a major slug fest. I loved the push for more hyrbids, but this is almost making that angle unplayable. Sure people will disagree with this statement, but damn why not a 25 man orc/wh kd or UD kd. Why bother with anything else.

you build good tpa/wpa because its beneficial in the long run. None of these changes allow for an orc/undead to double a army in t/m in NW range. and as long as your single tapable as a t/m u make things difficult. My kd has had ZERO unbreakables pre war ALL age and hasnt lost. It just takes a differnt strategy. No one likes a war where what it boils down to 6v6 unbrekable t/m's oping eachother and all the attackers do is add a "little" balance and a gc sink for econ.


finally

On the whole, I am rather disappointed with these changes. I feel like it's a mixture of last age and like Age 61; nothing revolutionary about any of it, at all. I was pretty excited about fresh blood coming in and shaking things up, but it appears we're just in for small tweaks and recycling what's been done before.

to be fair things like "Defensive losses automatically convert to soldiers(Permanent Animate Dead)" havent been seen in many ages, and geting some of those back brings more options. its not like they can code in a completely new concept having seen the code for what 2 weeks? thats what genesis is suposed to be for major new concepts to be bug tested before we get them in wol. would you rather have a "new" concept like every attack abudcts/massacres/plunders (already seen via humans fyi) that gets implemented wrong?

[eric1980]

Would you like to slightly power up races/personalities that are not popular this age, to encourage players to try on something new?

This should not be shaking the system too much, as compared to the changes we have this age.

[tiggis]

Would you like to slightly power up races/personalities that are not popular this age, to encourage players to try on something new?

This should not be shaking the system too much, as compared to the changes we have this age.

Is there some value to having players try something new?

[Nanka]

Why not? U have new management anyway.

[NighT]

Hey all,

Was thinking on the changes a bit, and although I dont want to join the whole "oh noes, TMs are weak and always getting stomped" .. can anyone give me any reason not to run 22 Orc War Heroes? I mean, those numbers o_O

I saw the numbers Bart posted. Those are very conservative even. And I'd pick Orc WH > Orc Warrior. Even at "just" 400 opa, an orc is going to SMASH a TM and then triple an attacker. 22 orcs means 22 masses on a TM and 22 x 3 trads on a chain. That's 22 masses or like what, 5-6 tms dead? Dont forget that BL + orc and war hero is massive kills / gains.
This age I had a few orcs in the kingdom and we ran between 16 - 18 epa.

As much as I enjoy attacking / attackers, you're going to force a few suckers into TM races while the rest of the kingdom gets to play smashy attacker. Those TMs are going to cry all age long about the random trads they're eating from those undeads trying to get elites, the war heroes looking for honor and in war the complete and utter lack of defense.

I get that we're trying to push orcs / undeads towards the heavy attackers. But their offenses absolutely pumped to the top should not exceed 300 opa. You got your other attackers at about 175-200 opa and then the TMs at 180-200 dpa. Of course it depends on how (well) you run your province, but I think these numbers (looking at the warring tier) are pretty reasonable.

This age Halfling was pretty unplayable for my guys. Very boring as it just .. lacked. Next age that +2 offspec isnt going to make a difference. The moment they think of attacking out, they're going to be massed to bits. Their defensive values this age werent good enough to make side hits in war. Next age with the orcs / undeads running around, those halflings going to be crying all age long. No econ, random hits from undeads/war heroes ..
Elves look pretty sweet. Depending on the orc/ud combo. Might even go for 8/6 elites at perhaps 9.25 nw. Is that military casualties bonus on offense too?
Faeries were beasts this age. I do feel that 40% damage modifier is pretty killer. We ran a few Fae Rogues A/T, and their damage output was pretty sick. I'd go for that 9 point defense on Faeries at most, assuming orc/undead gets fixed. 900 gc elites is pretty fair too, but give them a 6 point offense elite? Not sure how their defense will play out if we give them 9 points and -5% pop. The damage modifier should be looked into.

Avian is a joke. Slapping +casualties on a -attack time race. Give them -25% specialist costs if you want to keep that +casualties.
Human / Dorf are just yuck. Guess dorf is reasonable (why would you want to play it though?), but especially Human got a huge kick in the nuts. It was strong this age because of sage/sciences, which has been tackled. Leave them as they were this age, but remove Revelation. I dont think they need GP.


The personalities pretty much unchanged. Thoughts on giving Tactician +10% enemy kills? Might give it a bit more juice compared to Warrior +1 general and that pretty sweet looking War Hero.
Considering Sage has no revelation, I would think -50% losses on abducts will be nice for them? Give Sage +10% BE?
Rogues - very powerful. Dont like the thieves dens reduction, but I agree they needed to drop something big.
Mystic - Give cs?


In general, I'd like to argue in favor of a boost to wiz production. For all I care increase guilds production to 0.03 rather than 0.02 / hr / guild. It takes too long for any TM to recover from AW and/or masses.
Regards,
NighT

[Andurilas]

Hi There, would bringing back Orcs get leet creds for successful trad march be possible? Also, going old school how about bring back Dark Elves (DE)?

We can bring back DE if the racial penalty is -2 mana per tick.