UD/mystic build

[Persain]

I think that's a dig at my setup the age we fought, but realisticly undead tact is noob proof and is far from garbage. ;)

its not a dig at anyone, i generally think any competent kd would benefit from shifting away from tact at towards something like cleric/warrior/warhero on their pure attackers en masse (mystic on undead is a support race so not a "pure" attacker, and a couple of avain tact finishers or something doesnt count). I know plenty of people have had succecss using tact and DESTROYING kds with it, but from my experience destroying kds with tact over and over if the only difference they made to their setup was to go tact->cleric if non undead or tact->warrior/warhero if undead they would instantly improve and be harder to deal with and beat.

Why is tact garbage? Newish player here and genuinely curious.

because simply attacking faster isnt a good bonus unless you can do something with that speed. And speed doesn't give enough of an advantage to outweigh the military losses you experience simply from attacking...not when you compare it to a real bonus like the historical +1 general warrior bonus, the cleric bonus,+gains/dragon immunity, or say MS from mystic.

Tact is especially damaging if its not being done at a kd wide level....having 1/2 a kd at 10 hour attack times and 1/2 a kd at 12 hour attack times is actually detrimental to a kd as it makes things like chaining or nm waving much more difficult. i.e. mixing say undead tact with orc cleric just means your attackers get outa sync really quickly. You try chaining someone (or just not burning out as a leader/war coordinator) when your attackers core is spread out such that 2 people get in army in like every hour.

If/When you start to argue things like well we'd get another wave in at min time..blah blah blah, the thing people miss is you aren't chaining fast enough. The "extra" people you are chaining down dont amount to allowing your attackers to help deal with the enemy t/m's or hybrids since top mod off went down on both sides anyway. If you took a 100% simplictic aproach of each kd chains 2 attackers/wave at the 48-50 hour mark a tact kd has chained 10 to a normal kds what 8? How is that helping. By the 48 hour mark ops/chaining should have made both sides t/m's and hybrids mostly unbreakable anyway and 2 "extra" attackers (who started out small, chain top mod off down) who cant do anything but conquest arent helping you win. On top of that the extra wave has cost you 3.5-7% additional lost offense simply by attacking.

My personal arguement is that i'd RATHER face tacts who are chaining me down faster. You are building my low end for me, you are seting me up so when i chain you im actually able to finish off chains better because i have that extra 1-2-3 small attackers. THose small attackers may not have enough offense to break hybrids or t/m's but they are perfect for chaining pure attackers. And if each of my chains ends with you at 400 after incoming land but your chains end with me at 500 after incoming guess what im gaining an advantage.

[Persain]

Persain, are you trolling or do you really not see the use of getting your second wave in before your opponent's so you can use your highest offense attackers in more t/m hits before they get chained? (Not before min time, before your opponent's second wave!) Or being able to hit in between your opponents attacks so you're hitting their lowered defense on army out vs them being forced to hit your higher defense on army in? Or the other tact bonusses, clear sight and not losing thieves on intel are not useful in your opinion either?

If i full waved you with 18 attackers on a 16 hour attack time (decent # of hits will have gbp) and you push a button, get 2 full waves in before i can attack again, yes thats decently powerfull. However any competent kd can plan out a hostile or even an instant declare such that most of that damage can be mitigated for example ONE way could be

My personal arguement is that i'd RATHER face tacts who are chaining me down faster. You are building my low end for me, you are seting me up so when i chain you im actually able to finish off chains better because i have that extra 1-2-3 small attackers. THose small attackers may not have enough offense to break hybrids or t/m's but they are perfect for chaining pure attackers. And if each of my chains ends with you at 400 after incoming land but your chains end with me at 500 after incoming guess what im gaining an advantage.

As for no theives lost on INTEL or CS, you saying putting a spell on that requires 2-3 casts to MV or loosing a few theives to intell is on par with say -35% total military losses? 50% more converts on undead, dragon immunity, +1 general if warrior had that again? if you really think that and you have a say on your kds setup, then your kd is much weaker than it could be if it had different leadership.

Tact a garbage pick?
Yeah.. thats some stupid with bacon on it right there.

You know i got made the strategy mod for a reason, i dont insult others and i try to clearly state good solid strategy. The funny thing is the game owners were asking me why i thought tact was terrible too because they think its incredibly strong. And i went though my arguments and they disagreed and explain why tact is strong. That explanation didn't help I fully understand how tact is supposed to be use, i understand its benefits, the nuance it gives the way you use extra speed on a core as a whole to gain advantage...i just fundamentally disagree that its a good pick.

When others hear my arguments and dont agree i always hear some wishy washy reason as to why im simple wrong, or like u just get called stupid. The closest thing i've herd to argements are like Uhm hoi or the owners arguments "but that extra speed helps u on declare", "that extra speed gives you another wave by min time"......what i dont hear is how you translate any of that into a winning strategy. Speed doesn't "win", If u want to win via attacking you have to translate ability to attack faster into the t/m-hybrid-unbrekable battle. And i can give basic easy examples to illustrate why that speed doesnt help u win. i.e.

If you took a 100% simplictic aproach of each kd chains 2 attackers/wave at the 48-50 hour mark a tact kd has chained 10 to a normal kds what 8? How is that helping.

Tact with -attack time bonus, only needing 1 thief for intel (no losses), and CS is incredible for an attacker in a warring kingdom.
Attacking speed is god for undead... if your worried about getting out of sync with your other non tacts, add hour or two.. voila now your speed bonus is a gains bonus.

You like Undead Mage.. but find Undead tact garbage.. are you drunk?

No undead tact isnt garbage, tact is garbage. Undead tact is a meh whatever pick simply because undead is strong right now. However if you kd is using undead tact as a "core" attacker en masse you would instantly improve your kds setup this age if you switched to war hero.

If alternatively you are running 2-3 undead tacts and plan to make them go undead tact+lots of rax and position them small and try to use them to consonantly lap the enemy trying to chain extra deep i would argue the 15% attack time bonus of undead isnt enough to matter. u'd be better off with the -25% attack time on avain cleric since both have similar offense and sustain but avain gets you attacking even faster. Heck i'd actually debate saying Avain tact in that roll would be viable (and stronger) as u are almost always garenteed then to be able to hit a chained prov and "Finish" them off nicely. BUT that again is a support roll for a kd and 1-2 of them is enough just like undead mystic (4-5 though is probubly beter there) is a support race to pull some pressure off the mana of real hybrid+t/ms via a little NM/MS/FB before losing wpa. Thing is in the case of a support roll you are actually purposefully running a worse combination than the standard OP in hopes that the gimmick can provide extra power to your kd overall, you arent simply picking the strongest personality possible.

edit....

And its cast back on.
+ then you have to burn runes and mana replacing it every time I put it back on if you dont fail and get it first cast .. and I got lots of mana and runes are easy to grow or ask for. Plus my kingom will not be just sitting around while you take time, mana, runes, to keep it down.

We can tit for tat ways to deal with any strategy, but dismissing anything with.. "It can be dealt with this way by any decent KD" its silly.. everything can be dealt with by any decent KD.. but doing it in tandem on time every time is the rub and that is why we play this game.

You talk like i need to MV cs off of 5 attackers and keep it off perminately because the kd is tickly nsing 5 differnt people, and its going to cost SOO much mana. No, the kd will either
1.mass NS 1 person post NM wave where your eating 100 ops in 1-2 min as soon as the MV is cast, and you simply trying to hit F5 over and over to see if u got MV may at best catch 1/3 of those ns ops ooh no you cost me 30*.25=7-8 failed NS's....sooo broken
2. Nsing/proping offline targets. If your good enough to be awake nearly 24/7 recasting CS the second it gets Mv'ed congrats you win at the game, actualy kd strategies shouldnt try to plan against that level of activity, no kd currently is that active.

Age 72 and before you got an attack times reduction of 20%. So after some hours in war you had 12*0.8=9.6h attack time. If you sync yourself with your kingdommates in a 12h attack rhythm, you can choose +2h for 5-8% gains (I think) and yout troops are back right after an tick, if you attack at x:30 hours. This means that you can raze your stables and rather easily calculate and manage your attack times in a way that keeps your horses out in the field from one tick to the next.
Acres and BE fluctuations makes it really hard sometimes to do something similar with barracks.

+-hours have higher base losses. If you are always using +2 hours on every hit you are destroying your offense, its a BAD way to function as a kd level strategy.

[MeIkor]

+-hours have higher base losses. If you are always using +2 hours on every hit you are destroying your offense, its a BAD way to function as a kd level strategy.

I thought we were talking about undead tactician. I definately hat no problem keeping my offense with +2h attack times, but I dropped about 14% stables and turned it into TGs and Hospitals. Hospitals rather to make a chain against me a very little bit harder than to keep more offense.

[Persain]

Please quote where I claimed CS or no thieves lost on intel are on par with the bonusses above. I'm pretty sure I never said anything like that. I do think they are nice bonusses on top of the attack speed though and I brought them up because you disregarded them completely.

im saying attacking faster isn't innatly a bonus. In fact it actually hurts you more than helps you after you've been chained because you dont have enough offense to help out on the hybrid+t/m battle post chain AND every hit you make your kiling your own offense. The only way extra speed would help is if its enough speed that u can get your attacker core to chain the other attacker core fast enough that you still have enough big offense left to bring down t/m's. But given kd sizes and it being a 15-20% bonus and not a 50% bonus the extra speed simply isnt a bonus. So when you compare the bonus's of the personalities what your comparing is CS+intell V the bonus's of the other races.

I thought we were talking about undead tactician. I definately hat no problem keeping my offense with +2h attack times, but I dropped about 14% stables and turned it into TGs and Hospitals. Hospitals rather to make a chain against me a very little bit harder than to keep more offense.

Losses add up over a 6-7-8 day battle (either by attacking more or using +hours). A "good" example of that would b when my kd wared the kd taged "detroit." They were insanely hard to beat, really good, and used undead tacts. After 7-8 days of war, 1 succesfull chain via conquests and a another attempt to conquest wave they simply didnt have any offense left. Our chained dwarfs actually had MORE offense because of conquests and litterally outhitting our core by something like 22-12....losses add up.

Undead tact strength is being able to hurt enemy tms without having to worry about losing too many at once. Last time I ran a kingdom wide setup we focused on chaining and massacring tms. We focused our tms on gutting attackers. My opinion is all tact or no tacts because you have to line military up to chain efficiently. Let's face it having kingdom wide cs is extremely nice. Plus it's noob proof, give a noob undead mystic and I bet you would see 10 wpa with 4 tpa and no offense or defense. Shoot I ran human heretics last age and put out strict limits on tpa and wpa. Went into AVarice war with humans having like 6 tpa 1 wpa and no magic or thief science. Point is noobs will mess up something like undead mystic but can't mess up undead tact. We beat avarice with undead tacts but lost with human heretics. ;)

Coldhearted i dont remember the last time we wared you but the issue is you cant deal with enemy t/m's early simply by having tacts. I may have used an average of 2 attackers per wave as an example, but if your single taping t/m's down your going to instantly lose because you'll get down ONE t/m per wave while nming an attacker can drop 4-5 per wave. Even if u do 1+spare thats 1 t/m+1 attacker...u'll get at most 2 t/m's and 2 attackers that way before i chain 4.5+3.5 of your attackers in my opening waves. The differnce between 8 chained attackers and 2 at the 24 hour mark is significantly differnt than if both sides just went attackers and it was like 15 v 13 at the 48-50 hour mark.

[Uhm hoi]

im saying attacking faster isn't innatly a bonus. In fact it actually hurts you more than helps you after you've been chained because you dont have enough offense to help out on the hybrid+t/m battle post chain AND every hit you make your kiling your own offense. The only way extra speed would help is if its enough speed that u can get your attacker core to chain the other attacker core fast enough that you still have enough big offense left to bring down t/m's. But given kd sizes and it being a 15-20% bonus and not a 50% bonus the extra speed simply isnt a bonus. So when you compare the bonus's of the personalities what your comparing is CS+intell V the bonus's of the other races.

I gave 2 examples in which the speed bonus of the tactician is very strong. I have not disregarded the speedbonus to compare CS+Intel to the -35% losses of the cleric, to entire personalities or races. (I'm hoping you meant to say personalities there.) You claim I have and I should therefor not lead anymore. I'd like to challenge you again to find the post of me saying only CS+intel without the speed bonus is on par with -35% unit losses. Show me where I said this and I will do as you suggest and never lead again.

[Persain]

...edit.....and addon
For what its worth, i really didn't mean "you suck, quit as a leader". if it was read that way it wasnt my intent, and Im sorry. Obviously if someone is willing to lead and try its a good thing, the only issue with leading is if someone is doing things like claiming 80% homes all war is a "Good" build and enforcing it on a kd they are making the kd much weaker than it should b.
....end edit..

I gave 2 examples in which the speed bonus of the tactician is very strong. I have not disregarded the speedbonus to compare CS+Intel to the -35% losses of the cleric, to entire personalities or races. (I'm hoping you meant to say personalities there.) You claim I have and I should therefor not lead anymore. I'd like to challenge you again to find the post of me saying only CS+intel without the speed bonus is on par with -35% unit losses. Show me where I said this and I will do as you suggest and never lead again.

sory yea i did mean personalities. and i was trying to speak in an over the top manor...i guess it all got a bit muddled. My point is the example you give where speed is strong aren't good. And they are so not good, that the only claim u should/could be making is that CS+intell are the only real "bonus" that Tact is getting. IF you were "bad" enough to claim cs+intell was on par with the other personality bonus's you'd have to be a bad player...and thus a bad leader. Again the point was to talk in an over the top way to be dismissive of the speed bonus in a way that'd would sound absurd enough to get the point across. i.e.the take away shoulda read something like

"As the speed bonus of tact isnt good you saying tact is good is as absurd as comparing cs+intell to say the personality bonus of a cleric and obviously doing that would only be done by bad players/leaders"


For what its worth you made 2 cases
1.The initial early wave--
can done cleric v cleric because war bonus instantly gives a speed bonus. Tact doesnt magically give you 2 waves before the enemy does in war if planing out a good engagement. Even IF it is the case that both kds would use for example auto declare the tact kd geting 2 waves in before the second wave of a non tact kd waves can easily be a good thing for the non tact kd the leadership understands its comming and planns for it. i.e. you are placing more of their attackers as finishers so they deep chain you harder andbetter than you can deep chain them in the first 24 hours and THEY actually have an advantage over you.

2. the ability to lap a kd and get a full extra wave in at min time
again isnt a bonus because your not actually chaining enough more people at min time or even in total as a tact to start working on the enemy t/m's before you lose offense to overpopulation. And since this is the case the extra speed just means you have more offensive losses as you deal with the enemies attackers over time. For what its worth my experience with tact is that even with an extra wave tacts chain the exact same number of attackers at min time as a non tact setup becuse of NM waving. A tact kd is attacking every 10 hours, where a non tact kd is hitting every 12. 2 hours with 8 casters is typically about 24 casts of NM. 24 casts of nm is about how many it takes to lower 1 extra hitter into multitaps. So if both kds are nm waveing tacts do 4.5, 2.5, 3, 2, 2= 14 chains... Whereas non tacts can pull off 4.5 3.5 3 3=14 chains. AT min time. Since 14 is is just starting to hit how many attackers 2 kds run, and 48 hours in is enough to start building unbreakables but not early enough that all the "threats" are down theres never quite a time that a tact kd can leverage the speed advantage into a long term military advantage.