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Thread: Large Human Kingdoms

  1. #1
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    Large Human Kingdoms

    I was looking at some of the biggest human provinces I noticed there were some notably big kingdoms with a ton of large human provinces, whats the strategy behind their success?

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    Humans can get the best numbers all around. They have to set the pace and also they need cfs from kds that pose danger. You have to be both skilled in growing and good diplomat to make it work.

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    Probably for the reasons you think with Zaupers advice in the Growth thread. 6/4 elites means monotroopery, turtling, science covers the breadth of threats(not to stop them, but make things tough), ToG, switchafyability. They synergize decently as a core and can flow through a number of personalities well.
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    All war heroes all day


    The Jerks.

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    so in war what is their strategy, I'm assuming they don't really brute force it.

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    Their strategy is to have lots of science which enables them to draft super deep, and just have better numbers across the board.

    They generally run a/t or a/t/m.

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    Humans can basicaly do whatever they want in war. Once they have full elites they become super dynamic and decently strong and once they break 1k bpa they literally do anything they want. They are also super dynamic from a kd distribution standpoint, since they are great in core, great at top of core, great at calf lvl, and great after being chained. Their biggest issue(and it's a pretty big one) is that they are very vulnerable early age.

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    Since they can run 100% elite armies, they also have the ability to save a bunch of spec credits from hits / war wins which is an untouchable resource that is valuable to add during war times. If you have thousands of spec credits, it benefits the econ of the kd and allows you to pump provs quickly during war by just dumping sols onto them for d specs.

    It is still generally a more difficult race to play solo if you don't have support from your kd. You also can send too much defense out on hits at times and pull a lot of attention to yourself so you have to be careful with how you hit and calculating the defense you maintain while making your hits.

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    Human/Tactician is epic in my experience.

    I currently am running 5 rwpa (160% wiz sci),100 opa/40 dpa (all 100 opa out) and 1 tpa thanks to Clearsight + W/T. I run 10% Rax to start war along with the Tactician bonus. Throw in ToG and Human/Tactician as an attacker mage (or ToG economy if you have the peasants) is amazingly strong. Being deep chained + science raped as a human will make you cry though.

    I will say that it is very important that a human be in an organized/supporting KD, and additionally as a player you must be very particular about when you send your troops out, and how much defense you leave at home when you do. Humans tend to have very large targets on their backs, so identify enemy wave times and place yourself to attack that hour or the next.

    There are many solid race/pers combos this age though tbh...
    Last edited by Napoleon Bonaparte; 14-06-2014 at 01:23.
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    You're doing it wrong.

    Human is much, much worse as an a/m than an a/t. Their spellbook is essentially nonexistant for offensive magic, so you're limited to fireballs/tornadoes mostly. Which are ok, but not exactly a strong use of human.

    Your military is also pretty terrible? 10 EPA? Or are you running defspecs, which would be equally/more terrible yet..

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    You're doing it wrong.
    You're reading it wrong.

    40 dpa is my defense in elites when I send 100 opa of elites out. I run around 24-26 Total EPA depending on if we have waved recently or not.

    Human is much, much worse as an a/m than an a/t.
    Humans as thieves become withered husks in long wars, I tried running it. If you face a strong KD with competent thief defenses once you make 1-2 uniques you will be too bloated to really kidnap much of anything of significance, and you will be FB'd until you are worthless. I mean I guess everything is based on the KD you are in, but in a structured KD environment warring top KDs mage > thief for Humans.
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    There's one big problem with running a human mage.

    ToG>All
    =\

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    There's one big problem with running a human mage.

    ToG>All
    =\
    Agreed, efficiency wise for humans there is no question thieves are > than mages as you want to ToG with your mana, but my point is that if you have low wpa you will not have peasants to ToG with. In the first day, maybe two there are targets you can kidnap from, but once you hit that day 3ish mark as a thief you run out of reasonable kidnap targets and start bleeding tpa + getting minimal gains (plus your getting fat from gains at this point). One good wave of fireballs+maintenance at this point and you are screwed as regardless of your tpa (within reason based on situation) you cant repop fast enough.

    As a mage you will still have 4ish raw wpa + silly wiz sci on day 3 of war which will keep your peasants alive. This ultimately lets you ToG, which is not efficient but it is practical.

    Edit: Plus as a tactician it seems equally wasteful to have high tpa when you already have CS+W/T.
    Last edited by Napoleon Bonaparte; 14-06-2014 at 01:52.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon Bonaparte View Post
    You're reading it wrong.

    40 dpa is my defense in elites when I send 100 opa of elites out. I run around 24-26 Total EPA depending on if we have waved recently or not.
    So you're running 500+ BPA in popsci with 15% libs? 26 EPA + 0 peasants + 5 rWPA + 1 TPA puts you at 32 pop/acre. Base pop for humans is 23.75. Count with 500 BPA in popsci and 15% libs would have 30.4 pop/acre. That could work if you were overdrafted.

    But your numbers aren't very believable. (and yeah, 100 OPA with 40 DPA having 26 EPA is not very believable either; your numbers should be drastically better or your build is just abysmal. Or both.)
    Humans as thieves become withered husks in long wars, I tried running it. If you face a strong KD with competent thief defenses once you make 1-2 uniques you will be too bloated to really kidnap much of anything of significance, and you will be FB'd until you are worthless. I mean I guess everything is based on the KD you are in, but in a structured KD environment warring top KDs mage > thief for Humans.
    You're wrong. If you run appropriate TDs, you can always keep your kidnaps moving enough if you pick the right target. Growth will dilute your TPA (and your WPA...) but also your targets, who are going to be the ones with peasants, while simultaneously reducing any WTs they might run to protect themselves. Plus, the whole, 'you can NS if you're a/t' thing that you don't have a comparable to if you're a/m as a human.

    But here's the big thing:
    If you're playing as an a/m, there are much better options than human Here's a 2.5k BPA human tact, fully drafted. Note that I forgot to put WTs in his build, not sure where he's pulling them from since he runs 10% rax, and he needs guilds/towers for his a/m effectiveness, hosps to last, libs to reach his 33+ peas/a...:
    Human/Non-Sage @ 1k a. 83% draft, 0.2ppa, 0ospa, 0dspa, 24.2epa (218.4opa/114.4dpa) p(132.23 opa/45.77) 1tpa (3.23), 5wpa (17.37)
    Sci: 2500 bpa (300|300|500|100|400|400|500) / effect (36.5|26.1|21.9|120.5|42.2|180.7|202.1)(15% libs)
    Build: 63.7% BE farms 10%, tg 15%, rax 10%, fort 5%, hosps 15%, guilds 10%, towers 10%, libs 15%, stable 10%

    Here's my elf:
    Elf/Non-Sage @ 1k a. 83% draft, 0.3ppa, 0ospa, 8dspa, 16.8epa (130.4opa/126.2dpa) p(127.03 opa/47.17) 1tpa (2.88), 5wpa (20.06)
    Sci: 2500 bpa (300|300|500|100|400|400|500) / effect (30.4|21.7|18.2|100.4|35.1|150.6|168.4)(15% libs)
    Build: 61.9% BE farms 10%, tg 15%, rax 10%, fort 5%, hosps 15%, guilds 10%, towers 10%, libs 15%, stable 10%,

    Note that the elf has superior WPA, superior turtle dpa, and essentially the same practical off/def? Yeah. Even with 2.5k BPA, the elf is better.

    Here's the lesson:
    Human is not a good a/m. Fae is probably better too, but I'm too lazy to run the math,

    Human excels at:
    a/t/m. But especially because of the a/t synergy. Drop 5 EPA and run 6 rTPA, plus your 5 rWPA, and 21 EPA -- then your prov will be in much better shape and much more effective. Human doesn't excel at any one thing, and because of how the science formula works, you're better off spreading your effectiveness bonuses to gain an advantage in a number of areas instead of trying to focus it, because you get outperformed by the more pure hybrids. Fae outperforms human as a/t/m until a fairly high BPA. Human really does need either a size advantage or 1-1.5k BPA before they start to outperform other races. The nature of the science bonus makes humans very hard to balance.

    That's not even to mention that a sapphire will cripple your a/m effectiveness.

    e: your new post. Let's talk about this for a second. Your mage, in spite of growing, still has 4 raw WPA, having started with 5. That means over 3 days of not being hit, you only gained 20% acres. Yet somehow the same 20% gains cripple the thief. You're a pretty good troll.

    (and no, your peasants will still die if they want them to.)

    Your arguments essentially amount to 'my race/pers choice was poor'. You don't need to run WTs if you're a/t; you'd run TDs instead. CS can supplement you defensively vs t/ms, and take advantage of the tact intel bonus to save stealth/thieves for offensive ops like kidnaps/NS.
    Last edited by Zauper; 14-06-2014 at 02:08.

  15. #15
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    But your numbers aren't very believable. (and yeah, 100 OPA with 40 DPA having 26 EPA is not very believable either; your numbers should be drastically better or your build is just abysmal. Or both.)
    I always try to go in to war overdrafted depending on if I was able to ToG enough during CF. Like I said having a KD to support you is important and in this case it manifests itself as being aided soldiers prewar to release in to peasant so I can constantly bleed. Ive only had the gc to do it in two wars so far, and fortunately both were quick declarations as we waved strong KDs.

    Human is not a good a/m
    I do well enough in my role. at wars declaration I have very few peasants so I usually do greed blanket/FB (if there is a target) and then do a handful of LL to help the population out. Once I have enough peasants (usually around wave 3) I convert 100% mana to ToG.

    That's not even to mention that a sapphire will cripple your a/m effectiveness.
    The idea that a sapphire would prevent me from casting greed on an attacker is laughable.

    the elf is better.
    Not sure why your making this a comparison between an elf as we are analyzing the best use of a Human, but once again I am an attacker that will grow out of control late game along with several other Human/Tacts, not an A/M. If I was making an attacker for the purposes of A/M it would be Elf/Tact.

    You're wrong. If you run appropriate TDs, you can always keep your kidnaps moving enough if you pick the right target.
    My point was there is no right target unless your KD is letting someone grow as a farm. After 3 days 80% of the targets that are left are T/M and half of the others were old FB targets. Depending on who you are facing sure they could be fat orcs that you just keep raping peasants from, but against a strong opponent who is say human/dwarf/or any race that is also a tactician (alot), although I am sure you will kidnap some peasants it wont be enough to overcome the incoming fb ops.
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