Is PewPew vs SWEA fake war?

[martinzig]

It's already been made ABUNDANTLY clear what they did wrong.

PewPew suicides on AMA's banks out of war then runs to war so AMA can't properly retaliate. That's abusing the war mechanic. It's how fake wars worked since people came up with the idea of fake wars.

Then the mechanisms should be updated - for example, the war protection against outside hits only stands for hits from kds which wasn't targeted in last 24 hours by the kd in that fake/regular war. This rule could utilize the relationship meter - if kd in a war made more hits (relationship points) than the kd which was 'hit and run' then no protection, otherwise protection stands.
And to make sure that theres a hits in a "fake war" - protection against from outside hits is on only if both warring kds have atleast hostile relationships to each other. And if theres no hostile to each other then the kd page could show fake war instead of war.

My blood boils that theres interference of devs in middle of the action because ppl find out a way to use game mechanism in their advantage.
Its like changing rules of icehockey (eg golie cant be changed for a 6th player) or any other game rule in middle of game. Most likely there wasnt rule about golie - there was only rule about changing a player for a player, and then someone thought about changing extra player for golie. The rules (mechanism) allowed it.
Dont get me wrong, - i like clean fights, honourable play, i want that everyone can have fun - i like to win wars, but i dont like to destroy enemies so they wouldnt ever want war again. But this time i think its devs responsibility to make changes in mechanism if they dont want to see fake wars. (i personally think - that fake wars are not the end of world - it gives an unexpected edge to utopia).

[fuzzy|]

meh cant add an image for palem :(

[Winslow]

sitting on acres with war protection for 5 days is a benefit.

Can they pump there provinces than?

Or else i dont see any benefit from it at all...Since they arent being punished.

now i get a headache

[JustinSane]

It's already been made ABUNDANTLY clear what they did wrong.

PewPew suicides on AMA's banks out of war then runs to war so AMA can't properly retaliate. That's abusing the war mechanic. It's how fake wars worked since people came up with the idea of fake wars.

Apparently, I need to make abundantly clear that I was referring to SWEA, not Pew. That said, I disagree with you that hitting KD A and then declaring KD B is an abuse of the war mechanic, particularly so while effects are phased in - I also disagree with the statement that "its how fake wars worked since people came up with the idea of fake wars, but lets ignore both of those points for now.

Because there are no coincidences.

PewPew gives button to SWEA. PewPew suicides on AMA. THEN SWEA declares.

How is SWEA responsible for actions of Pew? Pew acts freely; reasonably, they alone should therefore be held accountable for their actions. SWEA is warring a kingdom. If they were not hitting, they would get deleted for fake warring. What options do they have?

[flutterby]

My blood boils that theres interference of devs in middle of the action because ppl find out a way to use game mechanism in their advantage.

Where have the devs interfered?

[Palem]

How is SWEA responsible for actions of Pew? Pew acts freely; reasonably, they alone should therefore be held accountable for their actions. SWEA is warring a kingdom. If they were not hitting, they would get deleted for fake warring. What options do they have?

My point apparently wasn't clear enough so I'll explain it as if it's a narrative...

PewPew: "We wanna screw over AMA and feed you all of our acres."
SWEA: "Great! Let's work out a CF with Simians so we can end those hostilities."
*works out CF*
PewPew: "Alright great. Now, we're going to give you the button and after that we're going to suicide on AMA's banks and +4 hours for the extra gains. After that you declare and you can farm out our banks."
SWEA: "Sounds like a plan."
*PewPew gives SWEA the button*
SWEA: "We better hold off pressing the button and wait for PewPew to suicide into AMA's banks like they said they were going to."
*PewPew suicides into AMA's banks*
SWEA: "Great! Now we can press the button and farm out PewPew!"
*SWEA presses button and begins farming out PewPew*



Has this thoroughly explained how SWEA is responsible for for helping PewPew abuse mechanics?

[SillyRabbit]

My point apparently wasn't clear enough so I'll explain it as if it's a narrative...

PewPew: "We wanna screw over AMA and feed you all of our acres."
SWEA: "Great! Let's work out a CF with Simians so we can end those hostilities."
*works out CF*
PewPew: "Alright great. Now, we're going to give you the button and after that we're going to suicide on AMA's banks and +4 hours for the extra gains. After that you declare and you can farm out our banks."
SWEA: "Sounds like a plan."
*PewPew gives SWEA the button*
SWEA: "We better hold off pressing the button and wait for PewPew to suicide into AMA's banks like they said they were going to."
*PewPew suicides into AMA's banks*
SWEA: "Great! Now we can press the button and farm out PewPew!"
*SWEA presses button and begins farming out PewPew*



Has this thoroughly explained how SWEA is responsible for for helping PewPew abuse mechanics?

That's a good way to imply SWEA is involved. But it's just a fictional story unless you have evidence. Well I guess mods don't need evidence to set punishments. But so far it looks like SWEA hasn't received any punishment.

[WhenWeCollide]

+1 Palem

[JustinSane]

My point apparently wasn't clear enough so I'll explain it as if it's a narrative...

PewPew: "We wanna screw over AMA and feed you all of our acres."
SWEA: "Great! Let's work out a CF with Simians so we can end those hostilities."
*works out CF*
PewPew: "Alright great. Now, we're going to give you the button and after that we're going to suicide on AMA's banks and +4 hours for the extra gains. After that you declare and you can farm out our banks."
SWEA: "Sounds like a plan."
*PewPew gives SWEA the button*
SWEA: "We better hold off pressing the button and wait for PewPew to suicide into AMA's banks like they said they were going to."
*PewPew suicides into AMA's banks*
SWEA: "Great! Now we can press the button and farm out PewPew!"
*SWEA presses button and begins farming out PewPew*



Has this thoroughly explained how SWEA is responsible for for helping PewPew abuse mechanics?

No. Given my understanding of the degenerate state of the game, I see no fault even in the hypothetical scenario above. Rule wise, that is. All I see is a kingdom accepting free land, something which seems perfectly fine these days. If your entire argument boils down to "if SWEA didn't declare, Pew couldn't abuse war", I think you are on thin ice. Reasonably, it is every kingdoms right to press buttons when they are given - it is not SWEA's fault Pew opted to retal AMA for interfering in the war rather than focus their hits on SWEA (or not hit at all, which by Bishops word earlier this age is perfectly fine).

So, you are allowed to farm out to friends, allowed to arrange wars, allowed to give buttons to friends, allowed to war one-sided wars - and yet this is illegal in ways that two parties are to blame? Again, no; while I find the acts silly, I do not see how SWEA are at fault.
- everything they did appear well in line with what is currently allowed.

[Ezzerland]

Considering SWEA's suspension was lifted and they're being allowed to remain in war, I think it really doesn't matter. The new question is, will SWEA get hit/GB'd into their war to prevent them from crowning?

[Palem]

That's a good way to imply SWEA is involved. But it's just a fictional story unless you have evidence. Well I guess mods don't need evidence to set punishments. But so far it looks like SWEA hasn't received any punishment.

Let's look at the evidence:

-SWEA and PewPew arranged their war. This is very well accounted for. When you arrange a war, you arrange the start of the conflict as well, at least pertaining to WHEN people will begin to hit and generally when the button will be given. PewPew made it very clear and they wanted to farm out to SWEA and there's literally no reason to keep SWEA in the dark about such things, so they would want to get into war ASAP.

-The start of the conflict was Feb 5th. Both PewPew and SWEA were online. PewPew OPENS with giving SWEA the button and then proceeds to hit AMA 10 times for over 15k acres. PewPew claims they hit the button as soon as they saw it, yet somehow PewPew managed to throw in an additional 10 hits despite SWEA being online and LOOKING for a button. Yet somehow, by the greatest of coincidences, SWEA only manages to find the button AFTER PewPew has done all of their hits into AMA's banks and fully suicided.


Either SWEA doesn't know where to find the button, or they're lying and were waiting for PewPew to finish their suicides into AMA.


@Justin - Does the word "Accessory" mean anything to you? If you're the getaway car for a bank robbery, you're guilty of a crime. Same applies to Utopia.

[SillyRabbit]

Palem you are pretty convinced that SWEA knew about the fake war with Pew. Will this be reflected ingame by a punishment of some sorts? Or is this just your opinion?

[JustinSane]

Let's look at the evidence:

-SWEA and PewPew arranged their war. This is very well accounted for. When you arrange a war, you arrange the start of the conflict as well, at least pertaining to WHEN people will begin to hit and generally when the button will be given. PewPew made it very clear and they wanted to farm out to SWEA and there's literally no reason to keep SWEA in the dark about such things, so they would want to get into war ASAP.

-The start of the conflict was Feb 5th. Both PewPew and SWEA were online. PewPew OPENS with giving SWEA the button and then proceeds to hit AMA 10 times for over 15k acres. PewPew claims they hit the button as soon as they saw it, yet somehow PewPew managed to throw in an additional 10 hits despite SWEA being online and LOOKING for a button. Yet somehow, by the greatest of coincidences, SWEA only manages to find the button AFTER PewPew has done all of their hits into AMA's banks and fully suicided.


Either SWEA doesn't know where to find the button, or they're lying and were waiting for PewPew to finish their suicides into AMA.


@Justin - Does the word "Accessory" mean anything to you? If you're the getaway car for a bank robbery, you're guilty of a crime. Same applies to Utopia.

Is that your opinion or fact? Because even in your hypothetical scenario I see nothing wrong. Not because I approve of the actions myself, but because the alternative is simply absurd; had this been Rage farming out X, I would've argued the exact same thing.

[Palem]

I'm not support. I can't punish kds any more than you can.


However, my opinion (and it certainly is my opinion) is strongly supported by circumstantial evidence.

Why would:
1. PewPew risk having SWEA declare BEFORE they did their suicides into AMA by giving them the button and THEN suiciding?
2. SWEA not hit the button immediately if they didn't know about the plan to suicide?

[SillyRabbit]

And I respect your opinion. I'm just wondering if it will change anything relevant ingame? SWEA is out of war and protection now, and it seems like the moderators have decided they don't deserve punishment. And his word is law around utopia, what are we debating?