rate the races

[topsy's revenge]

I think it would be fun to change some of the more fundemental mechanics on the game side, changing the effectiveness of the different race/pers bonuses. Things like base gc buffed to 6.5/employedpeon, draft rates doubled, eowcf having no sploring restrictions( even max amount) up to splored = median size, ect.

[Bukharistan]

Think especially a major overhaul of the Honor System has to be done. Right now people get honor for:

-attacking provinces with landdef
-Converting enemy units to join your side
-Kidnapping
-Sending meteor showers on civilians from your safe wizzard tower

Completely remove the honor system for mages/thieves. Give them skill points instead --> the more you succeed the more skilled your mages/thieves get over the age (only applies in war). Thieves for instance could become less vulnerable to WTs (ignoring 30% enemy WTs at max) while wizzards would get longer spell durations/more spell impact (up to 20% extra). Of course fakewars can be arranged etc etc. But that's something the devs will have to keep an eye on. The skill declines slowly as you're OOW.

Attackers boost their offense by attacking. troops get more experienced and will become stronger. If you train exra troops the new recruits will lower your experience. This could make Avian/Cleric-type attackers more effective.

Honor can be gained by trying improbable assaults:

-Winning a battle while sending equal or less off than enemy def IN WAR

Either that or change the name to "status" or "skill" whatever.

[StratOcastle]

I say if you send 100% thieves you should be able to steal a watch tower.

[tetley]

Skill points...
Is this an RPG??

[StratOcastle]

Skill points...
Is this an RPG??

It is role playable. I laid out an informal summary in the Virtual Kingdom for folks who dig RPG. Since I'm familiar with D&D and what not it occurred to me naturally. Though I admit I enjoy playing the game within the parameters of the devs. I notice a lot of long term RPGers get more conservative and find limits build character.

The Virtual Kingdom zero core makes it interesting for a RPG option. Figuring my D&D group ran 3 Dragonborn(paladin,fighter,warlord), 2 Elves(ranger,magic user) Half-Elf(bard), Halfling(sorcerer) and me, a Dwarf(warden).

This is partly why I explore integrated strategies; I'm practiced in sophisticated interaction. Working within zones and knowing the other guys feats to maximize our effectiveness.

[noobium]

but this isn't about mechanics changes, it's about rating (and changing) races.

if i were going to change mechanics i'd overhaul the fundamental basis of the game rather than tweaks to the existing structure. key points would be changing the way land is gained, lost, and managed, so that nw or land-based gains are no longer necessary, in a way that doesn't overly penalize smaller provinces. honor would be scrapped too - it was never a really effective mechanic in the first place. what sucks is the brokenness of nw gains and the impossible situation provinces are placed in due to overpop mechanics, and how in some situations massive overpop is totally unavoidable for what are bull**** reasons.

that said, the change to honor (fame) a few ages ago has made it so honor flows upward rather than downward, and ultimately the only provinces that get lots of honor (fame) are going to be t/ms. most honor (fame) players (like most players in general) do silly scrub things, which breaks the game balance tremendously.

i still don't know why fame changed name to honor, because if fame was kept fame we wouldn't read this "honor for dishonorable actions" argument so much. rename honor to fame, or rename honor to asshole points for all i care, just don't call it honor. problem solved. (the imbalanced way honor affects the game still remains though, unfortunately).

dropping provinces to land defense shouldn't be as easy as it is, and it should be a lot easier for provinces to hold on to the last scrap of defense than it is currently. a patch solution by changing overpopulation mechanics might help. right now, kingdoms have to do a lot of tedious management to manage really deep chains, and it sucks for kingdoms that have the slightest activity gap.

[StratOcastle]

I can agree with you on the theories of land defense as supported in history. 300 being the extreme, but in WW2 I've read transcript of German officer accounts concearning soviet pockets of resistance. Of all the coffee table books, The Soviet War Machine offered an opposing view to western bias.
This is how I rationalize Hostile as a form of resistance in the mechanics of unconventional war. Consider the number of police actions that were quagmires as such. So we might interpret war as a colonial themed honorable event. This is what is lost on the modern mind and the essence of Utopia.

[Bukharistan]

How about just removing overpop desertion from the game completely? At one point people are going to have probs paying/feeding their huge army on no land and chaining will still hurt econ. This way people can hang onto their aries in a long war, as long as they're well-aided (oh btw, remove the taxes on aid, it's a stupid system).

About the skill points, if you had read what I typed instead of focusing on that one word, you would've seen that it's not RPG style. Let me rephrase it for you to make it more pleasant to the ears:

Thievery/Magic/Army experience --> The more you use them the more effective they become. If you don't use them, they will become less effective. You could even build a personality around this system.

Agree about the gains system, it needs an overhaul aswell.

[noobium]

thief/mage/army experience just encourages (and kind of forces) people to play a/t/m. i think science and the needs of a kingdom provide enough specialization outside of race/personality picks (although a/t/m is fairly viable with the right kingdom setup, it should be a challenge to play one rather than something that gets a huge bonus due to game mechanics.

honor itself is a system with a lot of problems, that encourages some rather silly playing styles. the game could remove honor entirely and most of the game doesn't change - it does affect the war tier a lot, but it removes one of the objectives warring kingdoms go for and adds that little incentive to compete for chart position instead. whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of opinion. (never mind that good growth kingdoms can accrue pretty good honor now, if they go about it effectively...)

[Persain]

most honor (fame) players (like most players in general) do silly scrub things, which breaks the game balance tremendously.

you mean like sitting there casting NM on an in nw range count that you have no desire to chain. yea its stupid but incredibly honor/rune efficient to just gain honor.

[Nightmare_]

faery:
+30% sabotage damage
+1 mana/tick in war
+25% rune production

-10% gains

Elite 4/5 650gc 5.5nw
Spellbook: All racial spells (includes Clear Sight and War Spoils now)

shepherd (replaces war hero):
-30% build time and cost
All Farms and Stables are 50% more effective
Immune to income and drafting penalties from dragons, magic, and plague*
+30% food and rune production in war
Perpetual Nature's Blessing, Fertile Lands, and Love and Peace spells active
Your positive buffs are half as likely to be dispelled by Mystic Vortex, and negative debuffs are twice as likely to be dispelled
Starts with +1600 specialist credits

omg, faery/shepherd. Tog/NM/LL/FB machine stacked on CS

[noobium]

omg, faery/shepherd. Tog/NM/LL/FB machine stacked on CS

eep yeah, i didn't think that one through exactly (although the lack of science, wpa+ms, or rogue ops...) losing the instant spell damage bonus is harsh too.

[noobium]

bumpity bump:

updated racechanges (new stuff in bold)

avian:
-30% attack time
+20% birthrates
Accurate Espionage

No Stables or War Horses
No Dungeons
-10% building efficiency

Elite: 6/2, 550gc, 5nw
Spellbook: Clear Sight, Quick Feet, Invisibility, Mage's Fury (lose Fanaticism)

dwarf:
+25% building efficiency
Free building construction
Can raze with building credits

+75% food consumption
Cannot use Accelerated Construction

Elite 6/3 700gc 5.25nw
Spellbook: Fools' Gold, Reflect Magic, Fountain of Knowledge (lose Quick Feet and Mystic Aura)

elf:
+30% wpa
-50% defensive losses
+1 defense specialist strength

-20% birth rates

Elite 5/4 800gc 5.5nw
Spellbook: Nightmares, Pitfalls, Mage's Fury, Quick Feet, Greater Protection

faery:
+30% sabotage damage
+1 mana/tick in war
+25% rune production

-10% gains

Elite 4/5 650gc 5.5nw
Spellbook: All racial spells (includes Clear Sight and War Spoils now, lost Animate Dead)

halfling:
+12% maximum population
+1 offensive specialist strength
+50% tpa
-50% thief training cost

+30% military wages
+30% draft cost

Elite 4/4 450gc 4nw
Spellbook: Invisibility, Town Watch, Aggression (lost Animate Dead)

human:
+20% income
+20% science effects

-5% maximum population

Elite 6/4 900gc 5.5nw
Spellbook: Tree of Gold, War Spoils (lost Fountain of Knowledge)

orc:
+25% gains
+25% kills
Free draft
Converts some offense specialists to elites on traditional march attacks
-30% specialist training costs and training times

-25% science effects

Elite 7/2 800gc 5.75nw
Spellbook: Fanaticism

undead:
-50% offensive combat losses
100% of troops killed in combat revive as soldiers
No food Needed
Spreads and is immune to the Plague
+30% instant spell damage

Basic thief ops only (intel)

Elite 7/1 600gc 5.5nw
Spellbook: Town Watch, Mystic Aura

(starting resources for personalities all remain the same as before, unless otherwise specified)

merchant:
-20% mercenary cost
+50% specialist and building credits
Access to Tree of Gold

sage:
Free research: 1 book for every 3 acres
-30% science cost
-30% books lost to learn attacks
Access to Amnesia and Fountain of Knowledge

mystic:
All guilds are twice as effective
+1 mana/tick in war
Access to all racial offensive magic, and two spells unique to Mystics: Meteor Showers and Chastity
-30% wizards die from backfired spells

(the change exempts Vermin and Amnesia from Mystic's spellbook, an oversight that I had not intended... for most races, it means having pitfalls in addition to nightmares and the unique spells)

rogue:
-20% thief training cost
+1 stealth/tick in war
Access to all thief ops, including three unique to rogues: Assassinate Wizards, Greater Arson, and Propaganda
Access to Vermin

shepherd (replaces war hero):
-25% build time and cost
All Farms and Stables are twice as effective
Immune to income and drafting penalties from dragons, magic, and plague*
Duration selfspells last twice as long
Your positive buffs are half as likely to be dispelled by Mystic Vortex, and negative debuffs are twice as likely to be dispelled
Starts with +1600 specialist credits

(+30% food and rune production in war removed)

*This affects the following things; the income/drafting penalties from dragon, the income penalty from plague, the draft cost penalty from Greed, the draft penalty of Droughts (moot because of immunity). This does not affect: Riots, military wages from Greed, income penalties from overpopulation

warrior (replaces tactician):
-20% attack times
-30% train times
Access to Bloodlust

general (replaces warrior)
+1 general
+10% OME in hostile or war (must receive hostile)
+50% TPA on espionage ops (offensive and defensive)
Enhanced Conquest Range
Access to Pitfalls and Invisibility

cleric:
-30% combat losses (offensive and defensive)
50% chance of curing Plague every tick, and -50% chance of contracting Plague
Access to Clear Sight and Animate Dead

global:

Base specialist cost reduced to 250 gc for all races

The networth weight of thieves and wizards is reduced to 3nw, from 4nw (adjusts thief/wizard nw to what it should have been after the Great Nerf, and increases the viability of a wider range of tpa/wpa values on provinces in general; in addition, t/m defenses mean much more, and t/ms can opt to trade military for tpa/wpa and not be as horribly vulnerable)

Base draft costs reduced as follows:
Reservist - 20gc
Normal - 40gc
Aggressive - 60gc
Emergency - 90gc

EOWCF drafting bonus reduced to -30% draft cost

Elites with <4 points of defense receive an inherent -10% combat losses bonus when defending, for every point of defense below 4. This means that Dwarf elites have -10% defensive losses, Avian and Orc elites -20%, and undead elites -30%. This bonus applies to ambush attacks as well as normal attacks where elites defend. This is intended to reduce the strain on attackers being forced to send out their armies somewhat, but it is still better by far to have the elites out.

Exploration costs are changed as per this post: http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...1#post15295196 (the other stuff maybe can go in too, since it's mostly general gamebalance stuff).

24 hour normal stance is forced upon exiting eowcf, whether it expires naturally or is terminated early.

Buildings under construction create 25 jobs, and affect building efficiency. This weakens many building rotation exploits, much necessary and should have been implemented ages ago - the flipside of this is that it is possible to build acres in order to create jobs if suffering unemployment, but I think this is realistic and doesn't cause as many gamebalance issues.

Science modifiers are adjusted as follows:
Alchemy: 1.6 (+14.3% effectiveness)
Tools: 1
Housing 0.65
Food: 10 (+25% effectiveness)
Military: 1.8 (+28.5% effectiveness)
Crime: 7 (+16.7% effectiveness)
Channeling: 6

The cost of science options sustained and lower is reduced; Active science is increased to 0.8bpa/hr from 0.7; other science rates are slightly faster as well, except Extreme science which remains at 3 bpa/hr and 50gc/book.

[smercjd]

Giving them a score from 1-100 (my own rating system)

Race
1 - Elf (86)
2 - Faery/Halfling (80)
4 - Undead (70)
5 - Orc (65)
6 - Dwarf (20)
7 - Avian (4)

This is just based on a 1 v 1. Think about it - a kingdom of 1 avian v 1 elf. Who will win? Simple...Avian will lose all his troops fighting the Elf that doesn't lose troops. Avian also has the disadvantage of lower defense and wpa on top of pitfalls - the avian will have no army left even if the elf just sits there taking hits. The Elf needs less draft/buildings/science than the avian to have equal stats and thus would have a better economy.

Personality
1 - War Hero (90)
2 - Mystic (60)
3 - Warrior (47)
4 - Rogue (40)
5 - Sage (39)
6 - Tactitian (31)
7 - Merchant (20)
8 - Cleric (7)

The Cleric bonus can be achieved with 13% hospitals... That's all they have... Let's further the case of the Avian v Elf
Avian Cleric v Elf Mystic...rofl - goodbye avian.

[StratOcastle]

What's your rating for humans?