AMA vs sanct round 2

[PhoenixScorpion]

Yes its clear, say: if you don't like what did abs shut up or you will disband :)

Probably easier that way. Attempting to powerplay and twist deals, CF's, etc will not happen, you should know better.

I don't think it blew up in his face at all. I think he was expecting it.

If he did then his actions makes 0 sense.

ASF, the targetsharing excuse is lame at best. I can name multiple kds who have been robbing 0 thief banks from the t5 all age. We all know the banks run without thieves, and we all rob big amounts of GC when stealth permits it. So stop using that as a excuse for Havocs bank to get robbed. He was getting robbed heavily before the "target sharing" - This is amusing... Since sanc put up their 1st bank (dunno if i can name his name w/o getting into trouble, even though its obvious who im referring to) we have been robbing GC as he has run no thieves whatsoever. Havoc looks for a easy opening to fight a weaker AMA, its simple. This is abusing your alliance, and it should have consequences.

Bollocks. Target-sharing is lame and he shouldve expected reaction from that alone. To follow up actions like that with a hostile dodge he got what he wanted finally. If we truly wanted to "abuse our alliance" we wouldnt even be having this discussion, would be alot worse for the other side, and much easier than trying to be respectul and fair to our enemies.

1. Pew Pew refused to CF us last age and i asked them few times. Same this age. Only reason we have CF them now is Proteus pro diplo with them lead to pact deal all abs+hoh+us with pew pew.
2. We never was asked from Sanctuary for CF after war was over so we cant refuse it. I don't have habit to war/wave same kd after we had clean war win. Its was Sanctuary choice to keep it up and start actions vs us right after post war. All ASF complain about size is stupid. If Sanctuary think they are not in position to war us why they started it. There never was dodge Havoc. Havoc chances against us if we had our fair ("vultire" notice based to abs) 1vs1 hostile/war was sure less from ours. Sanctuary have way better war setup and was not less prepare for his war vs us from Havoc. Main difference now is Sanctuary started all hostile to can prevent us train for 48h and after it Havoc double hostile us.

After double hostile based to both kds provinces stats our chances are almost zero because we was massive untrained and loss much army from trade hits.
ABS play 1vs1 only when its favor them but if they cant win 1vs1 they start team play.

Funny if we wanted to really powerplay you would not be in top to begin with. First you exploited a clear screwup by Bishop and the dev's on what could be expected in Fortified, then you attempt to vulture us, then you target-share one of our kingdoms, then you try to use a Hostile block with one of our allies to dodge a notice you were given even further in advance than you asked. I think you screwed yourself in this situation by continually pressing your luck and that you have received little in the way of power-play, especially considering your actions and lack of tact.

U mad bro? I think you are. Is it hard for you to understand, that as you have your pro-abs opinions, others might have pro-aabs opinions? you mad cuz they dont agree with you? I think you are. Sanc robbing AMA after Havoc notices is just the shade of grey we've seen from Abs before, so why is it weird that ppl form up their own opinions based on the past happenings and the present situation ? Havoc accepted the "cant notice if we are hostile" CF clause themselves, and now they break it. The notice should have been retracted (spelling?) and AMA should have been given the time to finish the hostile with Sanc. C'mon, Sanc robs, FGs and FBs <-- how is that not econ ****ing AMA before their fight with Havoc? You just make it look like they need all the help they can get, which is sad. Even if they pull out a win over AMA, which im not so sure about, then they wont get any credit whatsoever.

Jealous of what? Im not mad. I built Havoc and its awesome to see them FSU. People know what will happen when they open this can of worms, so they are signing their own death warrant. Sanctuary robbing from AMA has nothing to do with anything, and is not a "shade of grey". If you are not CF'ed with someone and failed to train thieves dont cry when you get farmed for gold. Look at difference between when ABS is target of these types of actions and when the AABS crowd is. Even though I'm still pissed at goodz for hijacking my KD, goodz actually was extremely reasonable about Havoc getting target-shared by Elit. Also if Elit really expected Havoc to let him dodge their notice that he knew was coming 4 days before by waving a KD like half his size then he is both delusional and a pretty poor leader. This is typical behavior though from AABS crowd as was same excuse they used to power-play Infinity>Havoc last Age when we had same situation with Jerks. Also read above, even Elit admits that Havoc did not violate terms of the agreement.

Elit is a shining light in an age of darkness.

If you call his choices and actions this Age and last "shining" then I dont know if that is sad or funny....

[Elit]

dodge huh. stay to facts. If sanctuary didn't start hostile actions vs us and we waved them after havoc notice you can suspect dodge. Havoc notice don't mean we cant strike back if other kd start hostile actions vs us and havoc notice don't give them right to wave in clear active hostile.
Save your propaganda for time when you get doubled from us and explain how unfair is it.

[csarmi]

Stealing gold from a 0 thief province is not a hostile act, no matter how you put it. It's just common sense.

[brado]

dodge huh. stay to facts. If sanctuary didn't start hostile actions vs us and we waved them after havoc notice you can suspect dodge. Havoc notice don't mean we cant strike back if other kd start hostile actions vs us and havoc notice don't give them right to wave in clear active hostile.
Save your propaganda for time when you get doubled from us and explain how unfair is it.

You're right, it certainly doesn't mean you cannot strike back and wave a KD 60% of your size for stealing from your 0 thief cow, you can do whatever you like. Why you would want to do that when it clearly reduces several of the advantages you would have had is a mystery to me but hey, we all make mistakes. In hindsight you should be able to see why that play wasn't smart. (Whether or not you were planning on that all along, doesn't make a difference either) Good luck in war if you ever hit the button.

[csarmi]

Stealing gold from a 0 thief province is not a hostile act, no matter how you put it. It's just common sense.

Would you feel better if Sanc has targetshared you instead of stealing your gold? The effect would have been the same.

[tak3shi]

There is a lot of garbage in these threads and a lot of people commenting about fact checking. So, I took a little time to try and offer an unbiased honest overview of events as they happened this age, involving ONLY this conflict.

• Elit target shares Sanc & Havoc on the forums
• Couple of abs kds get taunts about their 0 thief banks with gazillions of gc
• Sanc noticed MA
• Sanc + MA went fort at some point
• Sanc claims fort is bugged and they lost all their gc stockpile because fort has 0 ops protection and 0 penalties opping from Fort.
• Sanc says MA is farming their allies which they broke CF with.
• Sanc in response breaks CF with Allies to get MA to re-cf their allies so they won't gc farm.
• Havoc breaks cf with sanc to prove this.
• 1 rogue province in Sanc steals a minimum (admitted) near 30 mil gc from havoc. Because he was pissed off at the accusations.
• Sanc and Havoc re-cf
• Sanc makes a gripe about the 'abuse' of fort from MA in public forums and says they'd be willing to re-cf since they lost gobs of gc due to being under trained
• MA says it's not their fault they abused a bug. They claimed they didn't know of any bug.
• MA go from 105% nw larger than Sanc to 115%nw larger than sanc due to Fort bug.
• MA waves sanc
• Sanc declares war
• There was still no actual diplomacy between either kd up to this point (this was complained about later, so mentioning again now)
• MA defeats sanc in war
• EoWCF ends
• Havoc notices MA
• Pew Pew notices Sanc
• Sanc robs gc from MA
• MA waves sanc citing robberies
• Havoc+Sanc Claim MA is dodging Havoc
• To this point there is STILL no attempt from MA to negotiate a CF with MA, not even publicly in the forums.
• Dragons and hits are exchanged between both kingdoms.
• MA states they will re-cf sanc AND agree to war Havoc if Havoc will reinstate CF for 1 week time to recoup the damage from Sanc.
• Havoc refuses to re-cf MA, citing having been "target shared" when it was requested to prove they were not inter-alliance farming.
• Sanc + MA hit fort
• Sanc sends an in-game CF without terms
• Havoc waves MA claiming Hostile with sanc is over.
• Sanc claims no hostility with MA
• Pew Pew waves Sanc, double hostiling them.

This looks about right, now. The losing kd being waved by a kd that WON the war will always be in a worse position with all the ww bonuses and being larger which Sanc was what 60% of MA size when they waved them?

The initiator into this was Elit's targetsharing, bug abuse aside(assuming he had no knowledge of it) If he didn't target share the majority of the blame would fall on abs.

Yet, even so he could have attempted a CF bearing in mind that he target shared AND gained advantage of 0 penalty opping/spelling from fort into fort again with 0 penalties. He should have known that he had sown bad blood with his shady moves early on but my assumption is that he wanted to stall Havoc and vulture more of Sanc's acres when they explored, hence the no CF. Any logical sane person would CF especially after pulling shady moves beforehand.

[tak3shi]

Would you feel better if Sanc has targetshared you instead of stealing your gold? The effect would have been the same.

That was the point I tried to put forth, both actions results in loss of gold so the outcome is the same. If Elit didn't initiate target sharing then he wouldn't be in this hole he dugged himself in.

Second: If Elit doesn't respect notices he shouldn't make or accept them. I find it ridiculous that you accept notice terms and yet wave a kd different from your notice terms. It's been specifically stated in most notices now that if you KD A notice you, you can't run and notice KD B. Since you can't do that you just waved a kd you could, it could have been abs, it could be some random ghetto. It still means you disrespect the very notice you agreed upon, if you're disatisfied with gc stealing. No.1 Don't targetshare, no.2 attempt to negotiate. Running by waving is a lame way to escape notices.

[csarmi]

I'd feel much better if they targetshared MA :(
Our whole KD could have robbed them for zillions of gold!

[Soul_Hunter]

Well i start to agree with tak3shi and Absalom. They are totally right:

- Elit target shared the cow
- we abused a bug
- we wanted to dodge Havoc
- we double hostiled Sanctuary
- Sanctuary had all the rights to rob from us
- pewpew double hostiled Sanctuary
- pewpew are our allies, so are cats, simians and whoever you say
- Havoc didn't double us
- 12 hours of no attacks (with 13 hour attack time for armies) is no hostile
- Absalom are all right, they never do wrong things
- I am ready to be baptized
:)

[PhoenixScorpion]

This looks about right, now. The losing kd being waved by a kd that WON the war will always be in a worse position with all the ww bonuses and being larger which Sanc was what 60% of MA size when they waved them?

The initiator into this was Elit's targetsharing, bug abuse aside(assuming he had no knowledge of it) If he didn't target share the majority of the blame would fall on abs.

Yet, even so he could have attempted a CF bearing in mind that he target shared AND gained advantage of 0 penalty opping/spelling from fort into fort again with 0 penalties. He should have known that he had sown bad blood with his shady moves early on but my assumption is that he wanted to stall Havoc and vulture more of Sanc's acres when they explored, hence the no CF. Any logical sane person would CF especially after pulling shady moves beforehand.

Pretty much sums it up. I wonder what will happen if Rage gets tired of AMA outright insulting ABS or HoH gets tired of being lumped in and accused as well. I fail to see how poking a bear then complaining when it gets tired of being poked and mauls you makes you a victim.

[Binar]

*fetches his poking stick*

POKE

[fwordz]

Why act like this is some ridiculous made up claim? You could instead state this as, "Fort did not provide the protection from op success that was advertised in the previous changes and in the guide and Sanc did not know about this bug while Elit did. Sanctuary relied on Fort for success protection and intended to train up thieves later and got all their gc stocks robbed since Elit was aware of this bug and planned to rob through the double fortified. Sanc then pointed out the bug to Bishop and suggested it be fixed. It was decided that it would be easier to change the guide than recode the game mid age and so the guide was changed."

Sanc did not know about it, yet they were the first to publicly point out the typo(!) in the forums back in December? Anyone with half a brain have known this since the start of age 55 (or atleast a couple of weeks into age 55) and it seemed a far more reasonable change if you followed the discussion regarding why it got implemented, and considering the way it was worded made no sence. (-50% effectiveness obviously results in ops on you beeing easier witch anyone with a brain see makes littel sence). It's not like it is a change that happened this age, it's been like this for 2.5 ages now and anyone that actually have enough insight into the game to have any place in top5 should know it does not affect effectivness.

Though I guess if you sit pumping all age there is no need to know about intra kd mechanics...

[tak3shi]

U mad bro? I think you are. Is it hard for you to understand, that as you have your pro-abs opinions, others might have pro-aabs opinions? you mad cuz they dont agree with you? I think you are. Sanc robbing AMA after Havoc notices is just the shade of grey we've seen from Abs before, so why is it weird that ppl form up their own opinions based on the past happenings and the present situation ? Havoc accepted the "cant notice if we are hostile" CF clause themselves, and now they break it. The notice should have been retracted (spelling?) and AMA should have been given the time to finish the hostile with Sanc. C'mon, Sanc robs, FGs and FBs <-- how is that not econ ****ing AMA before their fight with Havoc? You just make it look like they need all the help they can get, which is sad. Even if they pull out a win over AMA, which im not so sure about, then they wont get any credit whatsoever.

Didn't they noticed immediately after the war when there were no hostile relations? And wasn't the wave from Elit only after he received noticed? Correct me if i'm wrong. Btw, FGs and FBs are hostile relation ops, you have to GIVE a kd HOSTILE relations before they can FG or FB you.

[tak3shi]

Sanc did not know about it, yet they were the first to publicly point out the typo(!) in the forums back in December? Anyone with half a brain have known this since the start of age 55 (or atleast a couple of weeks into age 55) and it seemed a far more reasonable change if you followed the discussion regarding why it got implemented, and considering the way it was worded made no sence. (-50% effectiveness obviously results in ops on you beeing easier witch anyone with a brain see makes littel sence). It's not like it is a change that happened this age, it's been like this for 2.5 ages now and anyone that actually have enough insight into the game to have any place in top5 should know it does not affect effectivness.

Though I guess if you sit pumping all age there is no need to know about intra kd mechanics...

Weird 2 ages ago we tried opping into fort and we got **** NS gains, robs, etc. Same for opping from Fort, I've done both and am pretty sure there was some form of protection because the moment Fort dropped we got normal gains back.

[csarmi]

Sanc did not know about it, yet they were the first to publicly point out the typo(!) in the forums back in December? Anyone with half a brain have known this since the start of age 55 (or atleast a couple of weeks into age 55) and it seemed a far more reasonable change if you followed the discussion regarding why it got implemented, and considering the way it was worded made no sence. (-50% effectiveness obviously results in ops on you beeing easier witch anyone with a brain see makes littel sence). It's not like it is a change that happened this age, it's been like this for 2.5 ages now and anyone that actually have enough insight into the game to have any place in top5 should know it does not affect effectivness.

Though I guess if you sit pumping all age there is no need to know about intra kd mechanics...

Yea anyone with half a brain should know that there's a huge bug in the game concerning fortified? News to me.
Not having the -50% effectiveness when opping offensively makes no sense at all.