Make gains based on acres instead of NW

[Ethan]

The 7000 acre prov has 5000*15 = 75,000 k nw more dead land than the 2000 acre province. That's a lot of military you could have that he can't - so why not retal? If it is really bugging you, you can wreck their age surprisingly well just by being a jerk instead of rolling over.

"the army he left at home is still way out of the range of attackers in the Province B range"
- no, if he had that much more army than a typical province that size, he'd have way more NW too. If he got to the same NW size as you, you should have MORE military than him - 75k NW more military in fact. If you don't - that's your failing, not the games. 75% of my prov is military, so if I razed every single acre I had (and was 7000 acres) I'd be the NW size of a 5000 prov... still bottomfeeding down to 40%, which is pointless.


They also must have just spent a massive amount of resources to raze and rebuild all that land. Unless you are claiming they leave it unbuilt, and then they *really* are at a disadvantage.


Further - land based gains is awful and stupid. Whatever you think it might be solving, the new problems it causes are far worse. For one - forget *ever* warring unless you've spent at least 2 weeks straight pumping. Do you like sitting there gaining science all age long and never actually getting to fight? Cause I sure don't.

When "in range" is defined only by land, there is only ever one goal, to mindlessly cram as much stuff into your province as possible. Doesn't matter if it is fun, or intelligent, or anything - just keep shoving military into it until it will die if you don't keep aiding it every tick.



If you (people in general) really think the raze/rebuild for NW changing is that big a deal, maybe make barren acres worth 30 NW for the first hour or something like that. Does slightly odd things to chains with tornados or razes, but not really that big a deal for most people... while it'd add a lot to the nw of these top provs that are fiddling it that far. I don't think it is that big a deal, but if it is, at least target the solution at the actual problem instead of putting in one of the dumbest ideas utopia has ever suffered under. (I played some of those ages - it was as bad as "happiness", if not worse.)

[Zauper]

The 7000 acre prov has 5000*15 = 75,000 k nw more dead land than the 2000 acre province. That's a lot of military you could have that he can't - so why not retal? If it is really bugging you, you can wreck their age surprisingly well just by being a jerk instead of rolling over.

"the army he left at home is still way out of the range of attackers in the Province B range"
- no, if he had that much more army than a typical province that size, he'd have way more NW too. If he got to the same NW size as you, you should have MORE military than him - 75k NW more military in fact. If you don't - that's your failing, not the games. 75% of my prov is military, so if I razed every single acre I had (and was 7000 acres) I'd be the NW size of a 5000 prov... still bottomfeeding down to 40%, which is pointless.


They also must have just spent a massive amount of resources to raze and rebuild all that land. Unless you are claiming they leave it unbuilt, and then they *really* are at a disadvantage.

They leave the land unbuilt and use soldiers for defense. A 100-200k soldier ball gives significant defense (and NW) to push you way OOR for retals, while still letting you successfully hit provinces 1/4th your size or less with in-range hits. This sort of extreme manipulation allows provinces to hit for gains (off significantly smaller kds) to 20-30k acres.

The probably honor kd crown this age will be generated almost entirely through nw manipulation and bottom feeding. Every growth kd relies on nw dropping to some extent to get to / past the growth cap, as well.

Further - land based gains is awful and stupid. Whatever you think it might be solving, the new problems it causes are far worse. For one - forget *ever* warring unless you've spent at least 2 weeks straight pumping. Do you like sitting there gaining science all age long and never actually getting to fight? Cause I sure don't.

When "in range" is defined only by land, there is only ever one goal, to mindlessly cram as much stuff into your province as possible. Doesn't matter if it is fun, or intelligent, or anything - just keep shoving military into it until it will die if you don't keep aiding it every tick.

How is this any different from present day utopia? People refuse to war unless they're fully pumped, have equal or better science, wpa, etc. The kingdoms that tend to win (honor/nw/land) are kingdoms that pump deeply for conflict.

Literally, if the complaint about land based gains is 'it encourages pumping', it is no different from how things work currently. Pumped kds are stronger than unpumped kds and will take their stuff. Having less NW is not protection. The best solution might just be a true hybrid system that penalizes based on both land and NW (whichever results in lower gains).

But maybe not -- people warred more when land based gains existed. They did that in part because topfeeding was significantly rewarded and offense values were significantly higher than defense values. You could run a suiciding kingdom and war b2b2b with limited difficulty because all you needed was offense to war. As a reminder, all of the total wars / warwin records were recorded DURING LBG, not NWBG.

If you (people in general) really think the raze/rebuild for NW changing is that big a deal, maybe make barren acres worth 30 NW for the first hour or something like that. Does slightly odd things to chains with tornados or razes, but not really that big a deal for most people... while it'd add a lot to the nw of these top provs that are fiddling it that far. I don't think it is that big a deal, but if it is, at least target the solution at the actual problem instead of putting in one of the dumbest ideas utopia has ever suffered under. (I played some of those ages - it was as bad as "happiness", if not worse.)

LBG was significantly better than NWBG.

[feast]

I believe that a hybrid system is the correct and more balanced response.

Have it based on province to province land and nw as well as kd to kd land and nw.

I think it should lean more toward our current nw system than land for gains as a more pumped province should have better gains against another more pumped province of equalish size as far as province vs province factor is concerned and more kd to kd land size as a factor. Problem I see that most people have is with huge disperity of kd sizes. Why is number 10 waving number 50 so on and so forth.

[beans]

I believe that a hybrid system is the correct and more balanced response.

Have it based on province to province land and nw as well as kd to kd land and nw.

I think it should lean more toward our current nw system than land for gains as a more pumped province should have better gains against another more pumped province of equalish size as far as province vs province factor is concerned and more kd to kd land size as a factor. Problem I see that most people have is with huge disperity of kd sizes. Why is number 10 waving number 50 so on and so forth.

+1 blending nw and land for gains calc would be the hardest system to abuse imo. having to lower both your land and your nw for the best gains if you want to farm a smaller guy is harder than just temporarily knocking down your nw or temporarily knocking down your land.

[MyNameIsMatija]

The probably honor kd crown this age will be generated almost entirely through nw manipulation and bottom feeding.

This isn't entirely true if you are referring to Unnamed kingdom. We kept ending up #1 in honor simply from hitting people (since start of age, we haven't used up pool early, even our faeries were hitting for land, coming oop during the server meltdown I was the #1 honor elf for a while simply due to hitting for land), nobody would war us for a while (not without harshly deal breaking arranged war terms) until our 1st war with Civil Disobedience, when we ended up #1 honor after that war yet again it was like damn we could actually honor crown if we could somehow keep getting gains, then at some point after the whoring caps you mention were reached there was only one way to keep up with smaller KDs that have plenty of wars in range. So no, it's not possible to just honor crown by simply NW dropping all age in my opinion, unless you get free EoACFs with all the top KDs for no reason (usually you have to be in a presentable state for the other KD to even consider not just taking everything you have). One of the flaws of the current system is the fact that our 2nd war with Pandamonium only delayed us even though we won it, in addition to all the other flaws already mentioned in this thread.

[cRs]

One of the flaws of the current system is the fact that our 2nd war with Pandamonium only delayed us even though we won it, in addition to all the other flaws already mentioned in this thread.

Yes thats the problem with utopia latelly... wars actually screw over ur goals(aim for a crown) instead of actually helping you getting there. And that goes for land and honor too. Basically the game offers u more "bonuses" for avoiding wars and whoring/hitting smart and that can be seen for the past few ages on both land/honor crowns.