Age 47 Changes - comments

First, what the hell was the intermission pic before the posteditor came up??

Anyway, most people here seems to be under the assumption that they make changes for the betterment of the game, what gives you that idea? They've not made one good change for the entire post-Mehul period. And this one is just as bad as any other change they've made. The main problem is that they have no idea how the game works and how one play it. So they do some random things because they've got no knowledge of history of the game.

Well, time to gear up the overpowered dorf for another age, because that is sure to stay :()

Hi all

After reading quite a bit in this thread I saw a point mentioned a couple of times that has not been stressed enough. When we ask what changes are good or bad, the argument has been raised that no change is ever bad because you will just have to adapt. I agree that this is the case with some changes (and I actually think this is one of them), but there are two kinds of changes that I can think of that really make the game worse:

*The first one has been already raised, but not clearly enough (I think). That if a change makes one option clearly superior or clearly inferior to all other options then that takes away something from the strategic part of the game. If one choice is automatic then no thought is needed. The whole point of having different races and personalities and building and CHOISE in general is that it is fun to try to choose the best, otherwise we could only have one race, personality etc, or only one that that is playable. I am fully aware that it is impossible to make a perfectly balanced game (and we do not want that, because then all choices would be equal), but we want the differences to be subtle enough for us to have to search for them, and finding working combinations of them, and we also want the different playing styles (attacker, mage, thief and combinations of them) to be useful in their own ways. (note that I'm not claiming that this change in cb/ce will lead to this kind of problem)

*The second one is that there are also certain other factors besides strategic depth that makes a game playable and fun. For example practical things like time one have to spend doing a certain thing. Thus it is commendable that the tasks that we do not particularly like take less time (flipping in menus, finding targets, aso). There is a reason that we do not have to build buildings one by one or train troops one by one, we want all this background stuff be as automated and quick as possible, so we can focus on what we like about the game (wars, ops, strategy aso). There is good reason (I think) that cb:s and ce:s have been as easy to get as they are compared to other spells, that is because people like fighting and attacking more than they do tedious intelligence gathering. Sure, one could make them as hard as meteor showers to do and claim that it is for the players to deal with, and that is true, but if the goal is an enjoyable game then let’s give people what they want.

So, I'm for quite large changes between ages to make us think, but not for changes that doesn’t make us think (when the change gives only one viable alternative), or changes that increases the "tedious" parts of the game and takes away time from what we really enjoy. So even though no change can be "unbalanced" in the way that it makes the game impossible to play, you just have to adapt, and the best players are those which adapts fastest/best, changes can be unbalancing/limiting/depraving variety in the way that it makes some choices automatic or not considered at all.

PS: Some people don’t like change just because they don’t like it, it is like that in real life and there is no reason to expect that this game is excluded. Others don’t like change when it weakens their favorite niche. I like change, because what I like about this game is the strategy and finding the best choice and not knowing automatically what is best…

How about making all spells and thief ops available all the time. What is this magical barrier that prevents me from Nightmaring all the time.

First, we need another thief race WHY????? Because if halfling is to be as good at thievery as Gnomes and better attack wise we need Gnomes WHY? And if not then we need Halflings Why? If they aren't as good at thievery and better at attacking then why not just play a human or other attacker race that has no thief drawbacks and have even better attack strength?? It just doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it.

Second, from the sound of it Elves will be totally useless now as DE's are better for offensive spells anyway, and since it sounds like the only reason to play an elf race will be for offense what use will Elves be? It seems they will be out of the intel gathering completely, so other than war what are the DE's supposed to do with their mana? FB random KDs just for fun?

A second Thief race sounded lame enough to start with, now to make Elf races Offense only? Get more sleep guys, the brain cells could use it.
Ever hear the phrase "If it ain't broke, don't 'fix' it"?

Your second point was my reason for bringing up the all spells all the time idea. I am sure this at least reinforces past arguments for this idea.

My favorite play was A/T as i could run very lean economy and rely on stealing my resources. This was very fun for me. It will be much harder now to find decent targets and steal from them with what I have left in stealth. This new plan will force more teamwork. The well organized kingdoms will suffer the least from this.

Don´t make CB/CE go into thievery. It is just FINE as it is:
The risk is that
a) intel gets too hard/easy to get.
b) mages (not t/m) loses their "intel protection" (and what shall A/t do with all their mana?).
c) it is not tested, since the system is already working fine it could just end up getting worse by changing it.

New thief race is OK I guess,
there have usually been more than 1 option for a mage and races are supposed to get tweaks every now and then.

Yay!! now thieves will be more important than offensive specs, defensive specs and elites .... combined.

Ok, I quit this time. Sad.

But play 3 months with " I got a tun of thieves, la,la,la" "I got tun of watchtowers, li,li,li" " I am 300000 NW, I have 50000 offense (I need so much room to get so much thieves in order to get what ? A CB !!!!! And not even accurate ??????????? LMAO.)

By the way, why not simply remove any magic from Utopia ? Age after age, clever change after clever changes, Mages are already almost not played anymore...

Don't really like having CB and CE shifted to thief ops either. Main reason is this: To run 12 wpa mod is considered already pretty maxed out, while for tpa it is possible to run like 20+ tpa mod. Also tpa is by far easier to pump then wpa, which means that the converted "CB and CE" will be extremely hard to gather, as people out there can easily pump insane tpas.

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Originally Posted by Bishop

Undead didnt need ToG, people just wanted a race that could be played in easymode. I don't think ignoring bad suggestions is an issue.

In your second point you complain initially that it will be too hard, but ignore suggestions to make it similarly difficult to what it is now, then you state you don't want it too easy. Which is it? Considering the devs have said, explicitly, that CB will be equivalent to what it is now.

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Easymode? 60% of the server was playing UD. 30% quit because it was unplayable. UD is the hardest race to play. You get your leets from activity, not sitting back turtling, dicing, exploring .. building up your leets so you are unbreakable and never doing randoms. UD's play armies in/armies out in peace. They have to. Their leets earned are their only asset. Predominantly UD kds were waved 2 - 3 times a day - why - because everybody knew their armies would be out. That is fine. That is no problem if they had an economy. Gen UD that age was sweet. But if they can't replace their bldgs and armies bcuz tog was given to affluent elf at the last minute the game is over for anyone who loved UD or wanted to try a legendary race. Easymode? I'm surprised you nvr played UD. I played every age. Why? Because it was a challenge. Unless you are super active, you don't play UD. No such thing as easymode.

Can't find where I said too hard. I believe what I said is it's going to nerf thieves - no one will want to play it because it will deprive them of doing thief ops and getting honor which is the reason ppl choose a/t - they do not choose it to gather intel. The majority of Utopians have no use for intel.

It will deprive ppl from playing a/m because they'll need too much tpa to defend thief oriented races and also to gather intel of their own.

Everyone will have to play thief and it will wreck the game. Variety is the spice of life. Nobody wants to play the existing thief race we have because it's attack is so ratty compared to the other races. That's easy to fix. Give it competitive mililtary. If nobody wants to play one thief race why do we need two?

The fact that cb would be as hard as it is now is not the issue. We do not want the intel factor softened. The issue is it's going to wreck the game by destroying the basic foundations. You screw thief, you screw mage, you screw attacker because 3/4 of the server will be unable to get intel. You give thieves a ridiculous advantage because they will be unintellable. People can't be intelled can never be hit. Is going to be horrible, Bishop & is not just like it's me saying it - 97% of these posts are adamantly against it. Most of these people have been playing this game for years and know and understand it well. People aren't speaking out of the top of their hats. They speak from a deep rooted knowledge of the game, what would work and what wouldn't.

Why not keep CB and CE in the Magic section and add the " CB and CE " to the thievery section .
I dont think it would be that hard to do, i know its duplicate . ( I think its a good duplicate though you can spend both stealth and mana to get your CB ) That way your not going to chew all your stealth up .

I agree, make cb/som available as both thievery and magic operations. And don't dumb it down to where anyone can get intel even with very low wpa and tpa. This game is about teamwork and it should require some teamwork and a teammate with good wpa/tpa to get intel on a strong t/m.

i second that opinion.
I dont see why we are putting all the intel gathering in the thievery department all of a sudden.
The way you should go about this is to add "cb and "ce" as thievery operations and at the same time keeping it as magic ops aswell and toss in som and survey and stuff, make all the intel available for both mages and thieves....
the ratio for "intel" has been 3 in the thievery department and 2 in the magic department... why make it 5/0?
Your introducing a "new" thievery race this age, and your making it impossible for ppl to attack them cus you cant even get the intel you need??

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Originally Posted by Prince Blood

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Easymode? 60% of the server was playing UD. 30% quit because it was unplayable. UD is the hardest race to play. You get your leets from activity, not sitting back turtling, dicing, exploring .. building up your leets so you are unbreakable and never doing randoms. UD's play armies in/armies out in peace. They have to. Their leets earned are their only asset. Predominantly UD kds were waved 2 - 3 times a day - why - because everybody knew their armies would be out. That is fine. That is no problem if they had an economy. Gen UD that age was sweet. But if they can't replace their bldgs and armies bcuz tog was given to affluent elf at the last minute the game is over for anyone who loved UD or wanted to try a legendary race. Easymode? I'm surprised you nvr played UD. I played every age. Why? Because it was a challenge. Unless you are super active, you don't play UD. No such thing as easymode.

Can't find where I said too hard. I believe what I said is it's going to nerf thieves - no one will want to play it because it will deprive them of doing thief ops and getting honor which is the reason ppl choose a/t - they do not choose it to gather intel. The majority of Utopians have no use for intel.

It will deprive ppl from playing a/m because they'll need too much tpa to defend thief oriented races and also to gather intel of their own.

Everyone will have to play thief and it will wreck the game. Variety is the spice of life. Nobody wants to play the existing thief race we have because it's attack is so ratty compared to the other races. That's easy to fix. Give it competitive mililtary. If nobody wants to play one thief race why do we need two?

The fact that cb would be as hard as it is now is not the issue. We do not want the intel factor softened. The issue is it's going to wreck the game by destroying the basic foundations. You screw thief, you screw mage, you screw attacker because 3/4 of the server will be unable to get intel. You give thieves a ridiculous advantage because they will be unintellable. People can't be intelled can never be hit. Is going to be horrible, Bishop & is not just like it's me saying it - 97% of these posts are adamantly against it. Most of these people have been playing this game for years and know and understand it well. People aren't speaking out of the top of their hats. They speak from a deep rooted knowledge of the game, what would work and what wouldn't.

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without digressing too much, undead did not need another econ boost, they had free elites. I played them and they were easy with tog, and reasonable without. You suggesting undeads sucked without tog would indicate that you lack perspective.

And your second argument is a strawman. "no one will want to play it because it will deprive them of doing thief ops and getting honor which is the reason ppl choose a/t"

you have not refuted my argument that getting intel will not be difficult, and will consume less stealth than a normal operation. "You give thieves a ridiculous advantage because they will be unintellable. People can't be intelled can never be hit." Why are they unintellable? It is explicitly stated that it will not be that difficult. You cannot argue that it will be hard really when we are told that it won't be. So im not sure how this "nerfs" thieves, especially considering we haven't even seen next ages race changes, nor do i see how it forces peopel to forgo Maging - mages will now have more mana. Sounds good to me. People are over-reacting - sure, i get that they are wary of the change, but arguing blindly is hardly going to do use any good. If you really hate the change you need to formulate concrete arguments.

finally, 97% (yes, i made that statistic up too!) of last ages posts said dwarf artisan was the best combo ever. Ive said it before, and i'll probably say it again - common beliefs are not always true :D

As per my last comment #149 " Have CB and CE in both thief and mage ops " . And in regards to Twisty ( Top of this page )
We could call the SOM in mage page - Illuminate Military .

Personally this would please me as i play as more of a Mage than a thief . But again you dont need to have an unlimited stealth bar to get any intel .