PewPew vs AMA

July 2 of YR6 The Tor (JERKS) captured 254 acres of land from on the battlefield (AMA).

For what it's worth all ops and hits were ordered to stop this tick (the 2nd), some noob hit them 3 hours later (for 88 acres...)

I don't think there's a hard line where a hostile starts and stops. There's a number of factors:
a) I had asked for CF like 48 hours or so before that, and I was told that we'd get a CF when either we warred or our biggest province was 70% the size of AMA's smallest province (does this seem reasonable?)
b) Our activity and ability to return fire had definitively dropped over the 24 hours prior to us going to war.
c) They were 16k acres up.
d) They had started doubling multiple provinces - which alone doesn't necessarily void the hostile, but it clearly indicates that AMA felt confident enough with the state of things to take the risk, because our capability to control them was so shot.
e) We ordered ops stopped, began a conflict with another kingdom (which shortly escalated to war), and offered CF.
f) We had no intent to war AMA and we wanted the conflict to end, and they were well aware of both.
Edit: g) Based on their terms in a), I'll add that AMA gave us no realistic or fair way to escape the hostile any other way. (Unfair because of the effect such actions would have on the chart...)

To me it's clear that AMA had long since reached the point where they would RATHER be in hostile than have the conflict over, because it was allowing them to explore large amounts and claim hostile protection. Even by the time we delivered our last hit, there wasn't much of a relevant battle happening at all anymore...

Certainly none of these things on their own end the conflict, but I think all taken together the balance tips towards the hostile being over? And if not permanently over, then at least on a temporary hold, the sort of which allows a notice to be served...

Hostile is mechanical, just so we can all get on the same logic scale. Diplo adds frilly stuff to the balance of hostile. Either you abide the frilly stuff by some abstract agreement or hostile is the mechanical standard we all know through the server.
- So when you debate hostile, please designate the nature of the comments: based in mechanics and/or based in diplo.-

If I don't understand what you're talking about I'm assuming it's diplo. Let me rephrase; since you confuse some honor system that you clearly exploit, my intuition is to ignore " diplo " and follow the mechanical hostile. Doesn't that make sense? If you're using words to ignore a mechanical feature in the game then I had better benefit. See.

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Originally Posted by Darklove

proteus if i recall right then haoc hit straight into the kd thqat sanc ended hostile with. If so very different than giving notice.

And a hostile is basicly over the moment the kd u are hostile with enters another war. So basicly free to serve them notice.

Cf terms that was agreed on was confimed by ama to be 48 houers 3x times. If pew then assumes that is right then they break deal ?

Your bias is as always fun to read :-)

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Do you play in pewpew?

A hostile is over the moment both hostile kingdoms AGREE TO END HOSTILITIES. Its a bi-lateral decision, not a uni-lateral one. If that was the case anyone can get out of a hostile they cant win any time by starting a conflict with another kd and the kd that's left in the lurch can be preyed upon others. That's not how it works.

What havoc did with sanc was the exact thing. A uni-lateral end to a hostile followed by a vulture. You cant have one kd (Sanc) decide hostile is effectively over and have another kd (havoc) hit in. Same way jerks cant say hostile is over and have pewpew step in. Pewpew is not allowed to give notice until hostile is agreed to be over by both parties (presence of accepted in-game cf).

Unless you play in pewpew which would be pretty funny, there is no other reason for you to argue these points.

And you are right, I do have bias - I am biased towards playing by established standards in the top which doesn't include ****playing unprovoked to such an extent. Until pewpew is gbed and punished properly they will keep playing this way, this is a lesson to all you guys who want to compete for land properly and fairly.

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Originally Posted by Proteus

Do you play in pewpew?

A hostile is over the moment both hostile kingdoms AGREE TO END HOSTILITIES. Its a bi-lateral decision, not a uni-lateral one. If that was the case anyone can get out of a hostile they cant win any time by starting a conflict with another kd and the kd that's left in the lurch can be preyed upon others. That's not how it works.

What havoc did with sanc was the exact thing. A uni-lateral end to a hostile followed by a vulture. You cant have one kd (Sanc) decide hostile is effectively over and have another kd (havoc) hit in. Same way jerks cant say hostile is over and have pewpew step in. Pewpew is not allowed to give notice until hostile is agreed to be over by both parties (presence of accepted in-game cf).

Unless you play in pewpew which would be pretty funny, there is no other reason for you to argue these points.

And you are right, I do have bias - I am biased towards playing by established standards in the top which doesn't include ****playing unprovoked to such an extent. Until pewpew is gbed and punished properly they will keep playing this way, this is a lesson to all you guys who want to compete for land properly and fairly.

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Rofl. first, calling for a gb without anything happening is lame.
Second, war cancels all relations....that means ama is not occupied. This "running" to fights where you have a chance has been done since the start of utopia

So if PewPew ends up giving AMA 72h after Jerks entered their war, this sh*tstorm of whining would come to an end?

You n00bs fail to realize that hostile is more than mechanical. If that's the case then you can escape any hostile when you are losing with an arranged war, wipe the "hostile" away from kd page, and have your friends prey on the kd left outside of war. Sorry that isn't acceptable to anyone that plays in the top. Lastly both of these kingdoms are still "hostile" to each other by game mechanics, meter exists and decays while at war, you just cant see it on kd page. How do you think you can give button to a kd thats in war and they can declare when coming out? You guys are just retarded.

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Originally Posted by Shai

So if PewPew ends up giving AMA 72h after Jerks entered their war, this sh*tstorm of whining would come to an end?

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Obviously NOT! You must also give AMA & Jerks time to sort out a CF deal. Without ingame CF both are Hostile - which is a dealbreak to even Notice AMA.

So please take your Notice back and give AMA & Jerks time to CF then Notice AMA. Jerks are at war now so maybe need like 4 days (maybe more) to get CF ironed out since they are busy at the moment. Its only fair.

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Originally Posted by Proteus

Do you play in pewpew?


Pewpew is not allowed to give notice until hostile is agreed to be over by both parties (presence of accepted in-game cf).

And you are right, I do have bias - I am biased towards playing by established standards in the top which doesn't include ****playing unprovoked to such an extent. Until pewpew is gbed and punished properly they will keep playing this way, this is a lesson to all you guys who want to compete for land properly and fairly.

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One, he doesn't play for us.
Two, you don't dictate rules by any means, they accepted this CF offer from Jerks, July 7 of YR6 jerks v xx (jerks) has proposed a formal ceasefire with our kingdom. Arent you allegedly retired? I would figure you have better things to do besides getting involved in other peoples business and I'm sure Elit can speak for himself and doesn't need your biased, [as you stated] speculation.
Three, unprovoked is entirely wrong, <Cello> Fair enough, guess we'll see you guys again after our war with Jerks then, he even acknowledged there was to be a conflict and knew to prepare, instead targeted someone with no ability nor will nor want to fight back. Even got cocky enough to start exploring multiple provinces up. Calling for a Pew GB just shows how a candle always burns brightest before it goes out, just let it rest already.

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Originally Posted by Proteus

You n00bs fail to realize that hostile is more than mechanical. If that's the case then you can escape any hostile when you are losing with an arranged war, wipe the "hostile" away from kd page, and have your friends prey on the kd left outside of war. Sorry that isn't acceptable to anyone that plays in the top. Lastly both of these kingdoms are still "hostile" to each other by game mechanics, meter exists and decays while at war, you just cant see it on kd page. How do you think you can give button to a kd thats in war and they can declare when coming out? You guys are just retarded.

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So do you support AMA if they were hitting Jerks OOW because they are still considered "hostile"?

Even though Jerks's successfully ran away vs AMA?

Seems like you condone one "bully tactic" to defend another one...double standards!!

lotsa respect to pewpew, rare to see that kinda spotmanship in UT now days.

Huge props from here (to people that dident know pewpew gave ama 24 houers more)

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Originally Posted by Proteus

People explore in war too. I've explored in a hostile before myself. It doesn't mean you arent in hostile, some provinces in hostile are unbreakable and you explore them as part of your strategy. Doesnt surprise me because most of your posts in forums show a lack of basic understanding and are merely trash talk.

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Exploring up cows in a hostile with a KD out of declare range and an open CF is fairly lame if it means the Kd who is waiting to war you has 0 chance to win war. AMA attempted to do this in their hostile with sanctuary when they back to backed them :P

Interestingly he was exploring up large halfers then too :p

Seems pew gave the extra notice so all appears fair. AMA got full notice duration.

Also of note. AMA and Jerks would both be in much better shape had they given into my moderation. A reminder to other top kingdoms an excellent mediator is available.

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Originally Posted by Mike^^

lotsa respect to pewpew, rare to see that kinda spotmanship in UT now days.

Huge props from here (to people that dident know pewpew gave ama 24 houers more)

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For begin none from pew contact us and told they give any extra time.
Second its PR BS now. Its clear we burned our income with draft and we cant produce more gold. Extra time was useful from begin when we asked. Now its another BS.

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Originally Posted by Mike^^

lotsa respect to pewpew, rare to see that kinda spotmanship in UT now days.

Huge props from here (to people that dident know pewpew gave ama 24 houers more)

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Unless there wasn't any no notice during hostile etc clause between PewPew and AMA you're calling dealbreaking good sportsmanship...
A conflict doesn't just end because Jerks run to arranged war, it ends when both sides agree on terms and CF. So regardless of which notice is correct (48h or 72h) PewPew did dealbreak if there is a no notice during hostile etc, if there is no such clause then AMA has been extremely clumsy which I sorta doubt because whatever else you may say about AMA they're rarely that careless about diplomacy.

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Originally Posted by tetley

To me it's clear that AMA had long since reached the point where they would RATHER be in hostile than have the conflict over, because it was allowing them to explore large amounts and claim hostile protection. Even by the time we delivered our last hit, there wasn't much of a relevant battle happening at all anymore...

Certainly none of these things on their own end the conflict, but I think all taken together the balance tips towards the hostile being over? And if not permanently over, then at least on a temporary hold, the sort of which allows a notice to be served...

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Lets not forget that it was you who refused a ridiculously cheap CF deal, you had every chance to end this and chose not to, therefore conflict is valid until a deal is made, AMA wasn't being unreasonable here, you were. If they don't want to CF until your smallest is 70% of their biggest then that's your stupidity, you could have ended this before it even began. Therefore you running is not a valid end to the conflict, if they had outright refused to cf you after war or given you some ridiculous demand of 50% acres then the situation would have been completely different but they gave you an offer that was ridiculously cheap by any standard.

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Originally Posted by DonJuan

So do you support AMA if they were hitting Jerks OOW because they are still considered "hostile"?

Even though Jerks's successfully ran away vs AMA?

Seems like you condone one "bully tactic" to defend another one...double standards!!

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We trade hits for 6 days and ppl hit from his work too. Its easy to miss kd you retal war for 1 week run in war. Its was 1 hit only.

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Originally Posted by Elldallan

Unless there wasn't any no notice during hostile etc clause between PewPew and AMA you're calling dealbreaking good sportsmanship...
A conflict doesn't just end because Jerks run to arranged war, it ends when both sides agree on terms and CF. So regardless of which notice is correct (48h or 72h) PewPew did dealbreak if there is a no notice during hostile etc, if there is no such clause then AMA has been extremely clumsy which I sorta doubt because whatever else you may say about AMA they're rarely that careless about diplomacy.

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Thats just stupid, if one part of the conflict its not avaiable its no longer an active hostile situation.