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Oh, is this what utopia is about now? Lose a war, hold grudge because got beaten, waste everyone involved's time because it wasn't like they were crying about us wasting their time on a legit war? Yeah, clap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Band of Horses
If you win and come out weaker why should you be protected from someone stronger? There is no rule against them unlimited waving you, it's been done.Quote:
Originally Posted by yuuume
Different kd's have different goals? It seems that the state FS had pyro in with their war win put pyro in a bind as far as potential goals for the rest of the age. They opted to use some advantage to gain back what they felt was taken from them in war (honor/science). It's within their right to do so if FS was unable to work out some cf agreement during eowcf.Quote:
Originally Posted by yuuume
Most of the time the winner of the war is in a stronger position to force some type of cf, however, in the case where you win severely smaller against a kd with merchants, using the eowcf as a time to pump and reengage is very much part of the game. Tactical withdrawals for pump and reengage has been around for quite some time.
This is a tricky situation. On the one hand you have the whore- (and historically also the war-) tiers imperative that no conflict is over until both parties says it is (more often than not, that means until EoA). The goal is to win the age, not to contend with a simple war win. B2B is strategy, and a legit one. Always has been. On the other you have the warring tier having long surrendered the growth meta, and in so doing changed the war meta in its tier. Wars are no longer played for profit, but for winning another point on the score board. These two metas mix poorly...
FS "loose acre" strategy (zaupers simplification) can only rule supreme in a game where growth charts, future positioning, long term oow strategy is nullified in favor of a meta where nothing in the game matters, but the current and ongoing war. The game essentially resets after each war, and age ends are merely a way to tally the score. Think of that as you will. I find the game to be more enjoyable both to play and observe with added complexity - and the "new" wartier meta to be rather dull. But that's me.
The meta has, no matter what I think of it, changed though. I suspect more players will think of Pyro as the bad ones here. Since that's how most of the war kingdoms have played it in quite some time now.
So you could argue that Pyro, not playing in the whore tier this age, should adhere to the wartier meta and admit defeat as the wartier sees it. Or you could argue that Pyro being a child of both tiers, acknowledges the added complexity open ended conflicts brings and wants to introduce that to the war-tier, to the benefit of all(?) ;) Or you could argue Pyro fought FS on FS terms and failed badly, and had to resort to a meta to which they are better versed.
Lesson to be learned here: if playing under a meta with severe restrictions, put it in writing if you want it to stick. Different kingdoms, different ways to play. Perhaps FS should have signed a "no b2b" clause....
If this would be the best way to profit long term, this would be the composition of the whore kingdoms. It is not, so it is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmiedema
I'm a rube and even I saw that coming.
Ppl are overthinking it I feel. This is not meta, resource or whatnot matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadpole
They lost unloosable war and now need to push us around from position of strength to ... i dont know ... prove something ? pamper their ego ?
w/e ... nothing we can rly do other than sit tight and wait it out, when they decide they had enough we both get to walk away with one friend less.
Since I don't talk to Pyro nor FS players at the moment, in my IRC hiatus - I can't comment on motives. But you could be right of course. It's very easy to read it like that; especially given some of the Pyro players less than eloquent retorts in here ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by citadela01
That said however, there is a meta level to all of this. Whatever the motives. In the past, tactical WDs were very common, and without diplo you could never secure yourself from being hit post war. It is mostly a thing of the past for the war-tier these days - but FS very successful niche, that allows wins despite huge size discrepancies to their disadvantage - kind of actualize a debate on why the meta should look one way and not the other. It's mostly absent from the war-tier since war kingdoms have mostly agreed that every war is an effectual reset of the age - the war has one goal, war. But often when whore kd's step down to the war tier, that meta is out the window (Pyro now, or CR a few ages ago for instance).
Then of course, we have the argument that for most kingdoms this doesn't matter. A win very often nets you a favorable position for a return match. FS is a tie-breaker here. Which is why its interesting to have this debate in connection to this war :)
growth meta was thrown off the window, the moment we agreed to set an acre cap and fight it out.. they could do what they are doing now before we even agreed to war, and its on the table for the sole reason of salvaging whatever ego/pride they have left, after eating every single word they have said about how big they have won the war..
i have also seen them claiming nesta had told us that b2b would happen, but this is a huge lie.. nesta thought he won the war, and we would be farming their sci to beat some other kds easily - he was too blind to see that we were only and only playing to win - so he threatened us with not cfing after fight if we tried doing mass learns and wd.. it didnt go that route though, and we took the win instead of their sci, so here we are..
If FS "won" the war then like Tadpole said they should be in a more favourable position.
Running a TM heavy setup you've got to expect things like this to happen.
Don't blame Pyro. They won the war +20k acres and "lose". I myself don't see that as losing , I see it as a tactical wd to initiate a b2b
im pretty sure everyone can claim themselves the winner of a war with this logic, as far as i remember, free also won all their wars because they ended up gaining honor on all of them..Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty87
Flash back to end of last age drama with FS...
Not everyone, right? I mean, most wars end up with one party up in both acres and honor...Quote:
Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN
Also, wouldn't gaining honor from a WD be a win if it meant an honor crown? Isolating a war from any other game context is tricky. I know many kingdoms in the war-tier is trying to, which is fine I guess. But the game used to be more complex, and dumbing the game down needn't necessarily be the "right" or "morally just" way to go...
edit: To clarify. I think most players agree with your stance Francis. Not the whore tier of course, but the majority of players who's been part of shaping the non-growth meta. That the point of any war is the war, and nothing but the war. That viewpoint is however a "new" one, you're effectively arguing against tradition. Rightly or not.
Citadela with that comment I can't help but think back to last age when you completely destroyed a kd just course you could from a favourable position, and then FS answer was "grow and take it back".
This is not to have a go at FS but to show you why I didn't like the way you played it last age, bullying a smaller kd for their honour just because you could.
ding ding ding, was my thought and post moments ago. I love how everything comes back aroundQuote:
Originally Posted by Aranfein
its good that you brought up the context part - because i just cant see the context here, and this is the main part of the discussion imo.. we have no problems with getting waved or not, we have been waved countless of times and its part of the game.. the interesting part of the situation is, pyro doesnt seem to have a context rly - they just want to be the 'winner', and trying to make up some ultimate goal out of thin air to claim the title.. im still asking though, what is that goal? take 20k acres? take us down to 10k acres kdwide? razekill 5 of our provs? what is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadpole
Francis maybe it's your honour and science they want, and they are in position to take it by force, so why not to climb up the honour charts?
im pretty sure noone in fs is bitter because they 'wave' us, and im amazed to see ppl think that for some reason.. it gets wierd when they raze etc though, what is the point here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aranfein
My guess would be they want to take as much honour off FS since they know that's FS's main objective most ages.
Stops you from opping them back and taking honour, maybe softening you for their smaller provs that lost a lot?
Raze puts you in size range of their smaller core that can hit to gain honour too though. I can see the strategy of razing if that's their goal, if not then I don't know.
Seriously Nesta told you that if you guys want to drag this out until forever we are happy to abide and there is no CF in that scenario. Now you are coming to the forums to cry about it? Seriously? Grow a spine chump.Quote:
Originally Posted by citadela01
Bang on the money! And I agree... Pyros end game is a bit of a conundrum.Quote:
Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN
Since the war-tier meta is what it is, FS can safely ignore Pyro pounding on them. Since the point of the game to FS is to war, what do they really care about Pyro flapping their arms around and doing a few waves. For FS, the game resets with a new war, they'll prep against a new target of their choosing, and they'll do what they want to do - keep on warring. No matter Pyro. Guess they could razekill into war. But even OOW razekilling wouldn't be much more than a slight annoyance to FS. They will have to pick a weaker war target than they otherwise would - so? And Pyro in turn have nothing to gain on fighting someone that doesn't fight back since they too are not in the growth tier...
...the above logic is what upholds the war-tier meta and which makes sure that b2bs rarely happens, or other types of enforced play. Being pounded upon is no biggie. Since growth doesn't matter. To me, that is a problem. For others, that is a good thing :)
having practiced oow honor a lot, no it doesnt make sense on that front neither..Quote:
Originally Posted by Aranfein
War is just a stance. You had no problem killing our T/M science and wizards in war, but now you have a problem because you no longer have war stance?Quote:
Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN
You were warned not to do that. Now get lost and let us be.
have a clue please, i dunno what lies nesta been feeding to the kd but the only time cf was brought up in our convo with nesta was, when he thought we are farming your sci to wd and hunt other kds, but this scenario was far from the truth.. there was never any talk about a cf refusal if the war kept going longer - ofc you have all the rights to refuse a cf, but no need to lie about stuff to show yourself in a better light..Quote:
Originally Posted by bombdigie
please explain how we killed your tm science?Quote:
Originally Posted by bombdigie
Gaining 120 honour points per hit and likely bit more on your honour heavy provinces hurts though, and if not for honour I'm pretty sure with FS usual war wins (how many this age? 3? 4?), you'll be sweet targets for pyro to gain lost science back.
SaMpuaN if you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem. Release your defense specs on your TM, and bounce attack your elites where you are on land defense, and we will make this short and sweet. Otherwise prepare for war dog meat!
I can write whatever I want, but ultimately you know I'm the wrong person to be talking to. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN
its a pleasure calling you out on your lies though..Quote:
Originally Posted by bombdigie
I could point out to many differences but i wont.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aranfein
We can all play lawyers here and look for precedents as its age-old utopian practice, but in the end its pretty clear case of buthurt and everyone knows it. Since on the receiving end we have everyone's favorite KD's aka FS there wont be much sympathy here.
So be it, Pyro is in their right to wave and we cant do **** about it now. They will have their fun for as long as they feel like it and than we will both walk away.
I said it earlier and I dont mind repeating it, its a shame to end friendship this way. I am very nice guy so this entire affair leaves bad taste in my mouth, even if others dont give a **** about it.
To you this is flashback to last age, to me its flashback to cj incident.
You seem to think there is some authoritative figure that is going to be like, "oh you bombdigie being a bombdigie again!!! Shame on you!!!"
Would it make you happy if I were to type that I was a buthurt so that everyone can know it? Everything else you just typed is way too psychological for this thread. Nice try though. What ever helps you sleep better at night.Quote:
Originally Posted by citadela01
Maybe start whoring again, it's clear you guys have more talent in that ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bombdigie
What's funny in this whole situation is FS did more to damage there long term goals by not surrendering. Because most war tier if not all of the tier will not fight a kingdom who demands a 50% nw win. I know my kingdom will never war FS in the future regardless of advantage. Because I know FS will never surrender and who wants a month war. Most war kingdoms want 2 to 7 day wars. Nothing more, net and land determine the winner. Clean simple then we move on to fight someone else win or lose. To fill the scoreboard as it where. So now FS becomes that kingdom that even if you win you lose. Hope FS enjoys whoring because I don't see many kingdoms willing to war them in the future.
do you really believe pyro's story of 'tactical wd' from a superior position because we would drag it to %50 win? we always had a shot at creating more ubs, and they let us create more than anticipated & they had to wd when it got out of control..Quote:
Originally Posted by handofthrawn
Zauper and BoH really don't seem to understand war tier's philosophy. If you win a war and end on 10k acres, while the other KD ends on 40k acres, then you still win the war. They only think one war at a time. Like others said, after that war ends, it is like a reset age.
War tier doesnt care about acres, it doesn't really care about honour (although it's a precious advantage!), it just cares about that WW. Pyro can take acres from FS out of war, but they won't really care. When a warring KD loses acres oow all they think is: "That was a nice Tpa/Wpa/Sci boost! Who is in my range for war now?"
If pyro are warring this age then they need to understand that they lost the war in every way imaginable. It is that simple, this is not vietnam. If they are a growth KD this age then good job getting those acres but you still have a long way to go to win anything.
yeah not sure how u lose a war with a 2 mil nw advantage. always heard nw dont mean **** but come on now. pk bounce pump.
I'm fairly certain they understand it perfectly. That doesn't mean they have to think it is good for the game, nor that having said philosophy automatically offers you protection versus someone with a different philosophy.Quote:
Originally Posted by FATstrat
edit: On that note it seems FS, though begrudgingly, understands that their take on war doesn't grant them immunity. Which is as it should be. Right now they show more class in the forum than Pyro does.
But there is no multi-war timespan for FS. One war at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
And there is no general, only a collection of primaries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Band of Horses
FS fight every war like it's their last. So what if pyro can turn around and hit them afterwards? They have the WW and pyro don't, no matter how many punches they throw after the bell.