Pew Pew vs Debauchery aka Strippers aka Mystical Maybe

Suggestion: since raze attacks from outside ignore war protection, then why don't the devs just up the hitting into war penalty to like 95% or something?

Then this sort of active/constant hitting into wars would be impractical and a waste of time, but people would still be able to raze into war to hand out community punishment if it was deserved?

So if we look at two examples from this age:
1) SWEA's gains would be so bad that TMing into Pew's war would be more trouble than it was worth
2) People could still effectively raze Debauchery for dealbreaking if they felt it was deserved

Just spitballing here. What are the problems with this idea?

Moving on,

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Originally Posted by Farore

I kind of love you now, tetley, for making a logical, well-defended case without insults. + 1 for you ^.^

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<3
To respond to the rest of your post... if people think what SWEA did was messed up, then they will act. But I think it would be because they messed up Pew, not cause they hurt Debauch - because the bar is lowered on how Debauch deserves to be treated imo.

In regards to something Palem said: yeah I think there is some point after which people can no longer be punished for a past event... EoA seems appropriate. If people were hitting into Debauchery's wars NEXT age because they dealbroke this age, well that would probably be problematic, but until then... what goes around comes around.

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Originally Posted by tetley

but until then... what goes around comes around.

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Very true.

Also just to clear some thing up, there was no dealbreak with SWEA. Yes, we expressed our interest in warring SWEA. Told both SWEA and Pew about our preference (if there are logs of Silva or myself "promising" a war to SWEA, I'd like to see them now). But all three kds also knew that the first kd to wave us would be the one who gets to war us. We expected it to be SWEA, being much bigger and us already sharing some hostile words. Turns out Pew wakes up just a little bit earlier in the morning than SWEA, and they got to us first. Whether SWEA had 'dibs' or not is irrelevant, Pew started a hostile with us first.

Despite this we still offered SWEA the chance to give us button and we would promptly declare (SWEA 18.5m, us 15.5m). 4 hours passed between when Pew waved and when it was time to declare. SWEA was told we would war whoever had given button (only Pew at this point in time). So we did just that. SWEA was smart to wave us when they did, knowing full well that we wouldnt have any support from the community. I am not seeking sympathy from anyone because we were wronged - rather I feel like nobody should allow SWEA to profit off any kingdom in such a way. But there's still a lot of age left, and I'm sure things will get shaken up once again.

And I'm hearing word that some other kds are going to be paying us a visit soon. Always looking forward to a challenge :)

Here are some war formats including the hostile+war

** The kingdom of Mystical **
Total land exchanged: -16,890 (245/314)

** The kingdom of Pew **
Total land exchanged: +2,041 (239/245)

** The kingdom of SWEA **
Total land exchanged: +14,849 (75/0)

Swea stealing pewpew's acres. Pewpew had to hit down instead of same size. Gg swea for hurting friends

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Originally Posted by tetley

In regards to something Palem said: yeah I think there is some point after which people can no longer be punished for a past event... EoA seems appropriate. If people were hitting into Debauchery's wars NEXT age because they dealbroke this age, well that would probably be problematic, but until then... what goes around comes around.

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Typically, it's one full cycle. A kingdom does wrong, a kingdom gets wronged. The problem here is that debauchery has done wrong after wrong. They are not grasping the concept of punishment likely because punishment has not been harsh enough. So until they stop acting a fool or enough wrong has been done back to them, people will continue to look the other way. Debauchery has not met their full cycle yet. Their history has only just begun.

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Originally Posted by SillyRabbit

Very true.

Also just to clear some thing up, there was no dealbreak with SWEA. Yes, we expressed our interest in warring SWEA. Told both SWEA and Pew about our preference (if there are logs of Silva or myself "promising" a war to SWEA, I'd like to see them now). But all three kds also knew that the first kd to wave us would be the one who gets to war us. We expected it to be SWEA, being much bigger and us already sharing some hostile words. Turns out Pew wakes up just a little bit earlier in the morning than SWEA, and they got to us first. Whether SWEA had 'dibs' or not is irrelevant, Pew started a hostile with us first.

Despite this we still offered SWEA the chance to give us button and we would promptly declare (SWEA 18.5m, us 15.5m). 4 hours passed between when Pew waved and when it was time to declare. SWEA was told we would war whoever had given button (only Pew at this point in time). So we did just that. SWEA was smart to wave us when they did, knowing full well that we wouldnt have any support from the community. I am not seeking sympathy from anyone because we were wronged - rather I feel like nobody should allow SWEA to profit off any kingdom in such a way. But there's still a lot of age left, and I'm sure things will get shaken up once again.

And I'm hearing word that some other kds are going to be paying us a visit soon. Always looking forward to a challenge :)

Here are some war formats including the hostile+war

** The kingdom of Mystical **
Total land exchanged: -16,890 (245/314)

** The kingdom of Pew **
Total land exchanged: +2,041 (239/245)

** The kingdom of SWEA **
Total land exchanged: +14,849 (75/0)

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While the hypocrisy might be the matched, I am sorry to say that all I see here is a poor version of Proteus; remind me again, aren't you the KD that recently broke a CF with rage because Drixx said he might get waved by another kingdom? Maybe you need to revisit that thread.

That said, you know full well what ultimately caused us to take this line of action - and no, while helpful and/or contributing factors, it wasn't your actions versus Rage, not even the fact that you went back on your (read: Silva's) word to war us, that you forced us to pump, or that you refused our attempts at negotiating a CF. If you truly do not know, I suggest you read my earlier post. If that doesn't do it, I am sure Silva can explain it to you. Based on your posts, however, I guess you two don't really talk. Maybe something to work on for next age?


Respectfully,

Justin Sane
SWEA.

If you were razing it would be one thing. Instead you are TM'ing. The only point of TM is to gain land, in this case land generated first from a dealbreak and then softened up by your ally in war.

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Originally Posted by JustinSane

not even the fact that you went back on your (read: Silva's) word to war us, that you forced us to pump, or that you refused our attempts at negotiating a CF.

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Like I said in my post just before this one, I urge you to present any evidence of Silva giving you his word (read: a 'promise', or a 'deal') that we will war you. As I said earlier, we expressed our intentions to war. This is not a deal, and we shouldn't be arguing this point.

Mansoor offered us an extended CF to YR8 during day 1 of our EoWcf with HoH. When we were 76k acres (before HoH) you guys acted all tough demanding acres from us. When we were 96k acres after HoH war, your monarch asked us for a longer CF. Why would we care to agree to a CF with a kd who tries to act tough when they are 38% larger, but gets scared when they are only 10% larger. At this point, it was our intention to war you. But I will repeat, we never promised/agreed to war you. This is not like the CF deal in place with Rage, where we gave the CF initially under the pretenses of war (although Im not looking to start this debate again).

On OOW hour when Pew had waved, we approached SWEA for a cf. It was denied, so don't go claiming that we refused any attempts at negotiating a cf. Utopia is a dynamic game, and though we had wanted to war you guys, Pew hostiled us first. So THINGS CHANGE! Multiple kingdoms' plans can change due to the actions of another kd! The 3 of our kds knew the score - the first kd to start relations will war us. Why your kd was too scared (at 18.5m while we 15.7m) to actually land a few hits is beyond anyone! If you actually "wasted" 2 weeks to pump and prepare to war us, then why so hesitant to wave us? You held many advantages over us at that point, and many players have agreed that you should have waved us. At the very least, you should have pulled out of fortified stance. You name one kingdom here that would wave the #1 kd, 20% larger, in forty stance and I'll shake your hand. We were 65k acres before rage, 75k before HoH, and 96k after HoH. Do you really think we had the sciences/wizards/resources to compare?

Just because you said "if you war Pew and not us, we will wave into your war" before we actually declared on Pew, does not justify the actions. You had a chance to war us but were too inadequate. Instead you ****played us and probably gained more acres out of it this way. For this, I tip my hat to you sir.

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Originally Posted by JustinSane

While I understand that there will necessarily be bad blood, I am therefore announcing publicly that I am willing to resign my position in SWEA and abandon my province should that help you ever becoming friends again once this is over and done with - whenever that may be.

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It took me a while to get through that block of text you posted a few pages back. After reading it, I was so bored I decided not to bother quoting and responding to the mistruths, plus it would just be childish to continue with this he said-she said nonsense. But you made a pretty bold statement there, I'd be interested to hear how far you would go just to mend a relationship between two virtual groups, and I'd also like to know why?

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Originally Posted by UnknownGhost

Nobody is "ensured" that Debauchery won't dealbreak them.

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you're telling me that no other current kingdom has ever dealbroke?

if not, then no deal is ever "ensured" for those kingdoms too.

I dealbroke once, got waved into war - hawnt dealbroken since.

All I take out of this is SWEA doubled a kingdom in an active hostile and took a supposed allies acres from them.

SWEA - Nuff said

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Originally Posted by SillyRabbit

Like I said in my post just before this one, I urge you to present any evidence of Silva giving you his word (read: a 'promise', or a 'deal') that we will war you. As I said earlier, we expressed our intentions to war. This is not a deal, and we shouldn't be arguing this point.

Mansoor offered us an extended CF to YR8 during day 1 of our EoWcf with HoH. When we were 76k acres (before HoH) you guys acted all tough demanding acres from us. When we were 96k acres after HoH war, your monarch asked us for a longer CF. Why would we care to agree to a CF with a kd who tries to act tough when they are 38% larger, but gets scared when they are only 10% larger. At this point, it was our intention to war you. But I will repeat, we never promised/agreed to war you. This is not like the CF deal in place with Rage, where we gave the CF initially under the pretenses of war (although Im not looking to start this debate again).

On OOW hour when Pew had waved, we approached SWEA for a cf. It was denied, so don't go claiming that we refused any attempts at negotiating a cf. Utopia is a dynamic game, and though we had wanted to war you guys, Pew hostiled us first. So THINGS CHANGE! Multiple kingdoms' plans can change due to the actions of another kd! The 3 of our kds knew the score - the first kd to start relations will war us. Why your kd was too scared (at 18.5m while we 15.7m) to actually land a few hits is beyond anyone! If you actually "wasted" 2 weeks to pump and prepare to war us, then why so hesitant to wave us? You held many advantages over us at that point, and many players have agreed that you should have waved us. At the very least, you should have pulled out of fortified stance. You name one kingdom here that would wave the #1 kd, 20% larger, in forty stance and I'll shake your hand. We were 65k acres before rage, 75k before HoH, and 96k after HoH. Do you really think we had the sciences/wizards/resources to compare?

Just because you said "if you war Pew and not us, we will wave into your war" before we actually declared on Pew, does not justify the actions. You had a chance to war us but were too inadequate. Instead you ****played us and probably gained more acres out of it this way. For this, I tip my hat to you sir.

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I think you need to re-read my post. Apparently, you didn't get the message. Re-read both, by the way, since most of your misunderstandings have already been addressed. I'll leave you with a question to ponder: If we were scared of your size, why did we tell you what consequences your (non)actions would have days in advance? Sadly, the second I saw you in fortified, I predicted this would happen. As did you, I assume, especially since we already told you. You can try and spin it all you want, it changes nothing. But since you insist on bringing up fairness, I will close this comment by again tell you what your good Silva told me.

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silva: wolf does not care about the opinion of the sheep. you ****played us, now you expected to be treated fairly in return. HAHAHHAAHAHHA.

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In the end, you proved to us that you would screw us over at your first opportunity, no matter how foul your actions would be: you were going to double hostile us because we accepted a few free hits from HoH. In so doing - and through your continued refusal to accept a CF on the basis that you would war us - you essentially brought this sad outcome on yourself; as earlier stated, this is anything but how we wished for things to end.

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...But you made a pretty bold statement there, I'd be interested to hear how far you would go just to mend a relationship between two virtual groups, and I'd also like to know why?

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Are you sure you read even the quoted text? The answer is there in plain writing:

How far would I go? "I am willing to resign my position in SWEA and abandon my province".
Why would I do this? "should that help you ever becoming friends again".


Respectfully,

Justin Sane
SWEA.

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Originally Posted by SillyRabbit

. This is not a deal, and we shouldn't be arguing this point.

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It might not be an official we're gonna war you but it certainly gives SWEA justification for what they did to you. Not sure how anyone can call it poor form on SWEAs part. They made it real clear if you force us to pump to war you we will either war or wave you in your war. You said okay and yet imply they did something bad.

Well Jsane,

Obviously I'm not here trying to convince you why you were wrong. Neither am I here to convince anyone of why I am right. Instead I am laying all the facts on the table, the size difference of our kds, the background on the 3 back-to-back wars, the situation with SWEA, Pew and Us on who gets to wave first gets war, the fact that Pew hostiled us first, the fact that you were told with a 4 hour window that unless we had the button from you we would war Pew, the fact that you were 20% larger with months to pump over us, and the fact that your kd has no class to wave into our war.

(Isn't it common practice to notice multple kds anyway? And simply because you are given notice does not entitle you to anything. If you want acres, you can wave for them. Not letting you have NW/acre/science/wizzie/resource AND button advantage on us).

We showed you a handful of candy and took it away. Tears started flowing and baby bit back. Whether you believe you were justified hitting into the war or not because we made you pump is neither here nor there. If we get ostracized by the community for robbing into EoA cfs (even tho we could also argue that some of those kds deserved it), then you certainly shouldn't think you are walking away from this encounter with a clean slate.

Your last post added nothing new to this discussion. What does Silvas comment about the wolf not caring about the opinion of the sheep matter? You actually regard us as the wolf and yourself as the sheep, even comparing 18.5m NW to 15.7m? Heh, that's sad confidence you have in your kds abilities. What is this about a double hostile? You know that we were the ones who approached Kygal asking her to accept a CF so you guys wouldn't have a double hostile with a kd 5 times smaller than you as an excuse to avoid us, right?

I just would like to say...afdter reading all this garbage...You top nubs are idiots. Carrying on over all this and especially the rage/swea nimrods...ffs...they are spewing lies and whining tryna get anyone they can to believe their horse ****.

Props to cody and silva for keepin it real and bonkin some heads.

Btw...to the rest of the community...you dont matter. You're just here to whore off of.