Sheister vs Sampuan

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Originally Posted by Touchdown

It's an efficient way for pyros bigs with no range to lower the nw and def of fs provinces to open them up to pyro smaller provinces.

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That's the most efficient target KD you found? Man Nesta really losing his touch, no offense.

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Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija

That's the most efficient target KD you found? Man Nesta really losing his touch, no offense.

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Well with no retals it's incredibly efficient.

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Originally Posted by Touchdown

Well with no retals it's incredibly efficient.

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Yeah, you wouldn't want it to go to war being a warring KD and all. Thanks for the explanation.

It's quite easy to see why Pyro would raze as a bunch has already mentioned in this thread, to lower defense/acres in order to bring nw inrange of pyro smaller to gain good amounts, raze is the best option as not so easy to train back + no long term damage to FS other then the science/honour (wiz, tpa still same and improving), so in that aspect you can see it as a sign of letting FS off to fight another right after if that's their wish.

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Originally Posted by Aranfein

It's quite easy to see why Pyro would raze as a bunch has already mentioned in this thread, to lower defense/acres in order to bring nw inrange of pyro smaller to gain good amounts, raze is the best option as not so easy to train back + no long term damage to FS other then the science/honour (wiz, tpa still same and improving), so in that aspect you can see it as a sign of letting FS off to fight another right after if that's their wish.

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Yes! I am sure that's what they are going for.

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Originally Posted by Touchdown

No I'm not. We lost the war when we hit the wd button. The reasons for the wd are debatable depending on who you ask. I might be in the minority but i have no problem with fs war tactics and there was no need for our complainers in the war forum. The only thing fs has done that I don't like is complain about us attacking them again. They have 4 ww of science and lots of honor. We want it. This line of thinking that 2 kds just warred so auto cf is nonsense.

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A dangerous precedent to be set though. It's good to know that every war we think we will win we can talk trash after 48h, and then rationalize that to take/destroy all their resources after EoWCF. If every kingdom that left war from a position of strength did this to their opposing kingdom, that would definitely not be healthy for the game.

But in the end, as Sampuan has said, it isn't getting waved that we care about, it is that the whole chain of events makes no sense. If they were just doing it for resources they could have done that from a position of strength prior to the war. The problem is they havent really come to the table with any realistic offer. Their idea is just to wave and wave a kingdom not fighting back. Yes this is different than last age when we hit kingdoms from strength as we only did 1 wave (usually just a partial wave) against kingdoms, and were very open to CF's, the only time we did more than 1 wave on a kingdom was when they were hitting back and/or not coming to the table for a CF.

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Originally Posted by Touchdown

I play in pyro. I was against the wd in the first place but we did anyway. Next best option is to take the ww resources however we can. No sense in crying about size difference. FS gave us that advantage.

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That pretty much sums up my view.

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Originally Posted by Aranfein

Swagger same way some are siding with FS... Friendship

Sheister I wouldn't know about that, if people didn't manage provs accordingly during war, it falls on leadership to keep them in check though, unless you assume all your players know what they are doing, but even then you should check and make sure either by intel or by asking. - I understand that's not easy when you're tired after 4+ days of war, that's why you assign a vice or a council to take up that mantle.

End of the day FS deserved the win, whether they played to drag or not, turning back on a friendly kd to remove ww resources course you are hurt, by the way FS got their win, seems pretty petty to me.. Don't get me wrong you are in your right to do so, and I can appreciate you WD in favourable position to do just that, but just like I said to Francis in our talks early last age (I think it was), "Just course you can, doesn't mean you have to".

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No argument from me. I did not take the time to explain to people how to adapt until people started whining and talking WD, that was when I woke up and looked at intel and said, "ummmm, wtf, this is what you do, build it and then get back in the fight and stop talking WD". The people argued about that with me and said we had to WD or otherwise XX province would be obliterated within 24 hrs. I said, "WTF cares, if that province goes down, we lost enough NW that we can dragon them again if people swap the builds like I said." They whined more and we WD under the suggestion of a round 2. I said, "that is assinine, we won't have range and FS will punk out and not want to war because they will feel like they are being bullied." Others said FS has been around long enough to understand strategic WD and round 2 warring, I said, "I doubt it. but at least lets just learn them and take the resources we want, not land, which we don't." They said, "but then we could get boned if they hit back." I said, "that is the only way they will hit back and maybe war, if they see some method by which to bone our larger provinces, so we have to learn to take the resource we want, let them bone us a bit, and maybe we get round 2."

Its eerie isn't it?

meh, whatever. so our guys can just farm resources now and we are unable to get a war because we are too big. Its sad, but it lets me just lay in a pump build and go back to sleeping.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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Originally Posted by Touchdown

Well with no retals it's incredibly efficient.

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lets go through your 'genius' strategy of efficient farming step by step..

- started with max gains + razes (gave us a lot of gbp, and pushed us out of rnw)
- mixed in some raze bounces with actual razes & out of range land hits for minimal gains (lowered our rnw further, and those out of range land hits gain no honor)
- we are all on high gbp and out of rnw for most of pyro now (gbp + max schools in now, good luck with getting books)
- you havent done any learns at all except 2 hits or something (so much for sci farming?)

you claim your goal was to farm science and honor, but you terribly fail on doing neither.. learns give extremely low amount of gbp compared to trads, and for efficient farming, you shouldve started with a lot of learns.. guess what? our provs would actually be in your range to gain any books at all too.. i feel like something is wrong here, it almost sounds like you dont care about getting any science at all, neither much about honor.. lets use the same steps you have taken with a different goal in mind..

- started with max gains + razes (pushed yourself close to land cap of your war agreement, to start pumping for war asap)
- mixed in some raze bounces with actual razes & out of range land hits for minimal gains (gaining as small amount of lands as possible now after reaching close enough to cap, and making small gains to stay below)
- we are all on high gbp and out of rnw for most of pyro now (even lower gains, and we dont have any rnw to fight you back if we would want to retal by any means)
- you havent done any learns at all except 2 hits or something (you only need learns to keep 'conflict' going after reaching land cap for the war, so gaining land was priority earlier)

suddenly it all started making sense, huh?

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Originally Posted by jmiedema

A dangerous precedent to be set though. It's good to know that every war we think we will win we can talk trash after 48h, and then rationalize that to take/destroy all their resources after EoWCF. If every kingdom that left war from a position of strength did this to their opposing kingdom, that would definitely not be healthy for the game.

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I think you are over stating your case here. How often do war kingdoms feed acres to opponents for over 5 days working only to shell them? I believe most try to maintain acre control and not create monster economy potential on the other side. Again, it was effective in the war itself, but in terms of how the game is designed, it is an incredibly stupid way to go. It opens the door for round 2 warring and the stripping out of provinces in peace time. As I said in war, dragging the war was stupid (even though it got them the win) and then shelling us at the same time so that we had to become resource predatory or else find another way to get prepared for any future conflict at all... well FS prepped us for this. If this is what war kingdoms routinely do... well then I will need to pay attention to ends of conflicts a little more closely if ever I whore again.

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Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN

lets go through your 'genius' strategy of efficient farming step by step..

- started with max gains + razes (gave us a lot of gbp, and pushed us out of rnw)
- mixed in some raze bounces with actual razes & out of range land hits for minimal gains (lowered our rnw further, and those out of range land hits gain no honor)
- we are all on high gbp and out of rnw for most of pyro now (gbp + max schools in now, good luck with getting books)
- you havent done any learns at all except 2 hits or something (so much for sci farming?)

you claim your goal was to farm science and honor, but you terribly fail on doing neither.. learns give extremely low amount of gbp compared to trads, and for efficient farming, you shouldve started with a lot of learns.. guess what? our provs would actually be in your range to gain any books at all too.. i feel like something is wrong here, it almost sounds like you dont care about getting any science at all, neither much about honor.. lets use the same steps you have taken with a different goal in mind..

- started with max gains + razes (pushed yourself close to land cap of your war agreement, to start pumping for war asap)
- mixed in some raze bounces with actual razes & out of range land hits for minimal gains (gaining as small amount of lands as possible now after reaching close enough to cap, and making small gains to stay below)
- we are all on high gbp and out of rnw for most of pyro now (even lower gains, and we dont have any rnw to fight you back if we would want to retal by any means)
- you havent done any learns at all except 2 hits or something (you only need learns to keep 'conflict' going after reaching land cap for the war, so gaining land was priority earlier)

suddenly it all started making sense, huh?

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I don't assign hits. All I know is we asked for science and honor and fs prov to release def to speed up the process. If fs refuse i guess we would need to plan the hits differently in case retals start coming. This is my point of view. You would need to talk with leadership to get a clear answer.

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Originally Posted by Touchdown

You would need to talk with leadership to get a clear answer.

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Can you just say Nesta? Why do people hate proper nouns?

Matje, I wouldn't know but that would be the obvious guess.

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Originally Posted by jmiedema

A dangerous precedent to be set though. It's good to know that every war we think we will win we can talk trash after 48h, and then rationalize that to take/destroy all their resources after EoWCF. If every kingdom that left war from a position of strength did this to their opposing kingdom, that would definitely not be healthy for the game.

But in the end, as Sampuan has said, it isn't getting waved that we care about, it is that the whole chain of events makes no sense. If they were just doing it for resources they could have done that from a position of strength prior to the war. The problem is they havent really come to the table with any realistic offer. Their idea is just to wave and wave a kingdom not fighting back. Yes this is different than last age when we hit kingdoms from strength as we only did 1 wave (usually just a partial wave) against kingdoms, and were very open to CF's, the only time we did more than 1 wave on a kingdom was when they were hitting back and/or not coming to the table for a CF.

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There is nothing wrong with considering the advantages another kd will have after eowcf mechanics kick in while planning war strategy. I don't consider that unhealthy for the game. I also think it's fine for 2 kds to shake hands and go separate ways after such a war. Maybe our friendliness was overestimated.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Can you just say Nesta? Why do people hate proper nouns?

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i actually saw our cf demands from whoever p.a is in our whatsapp

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Originally Posted by Touchdown

No I'm not. We lost the war when we hit the wd button. The reasons for the wd are debatable depending on who you ask. I might be in the minority but i have no problem with fs war tactics and there was no need for our complainers in the war forum. The only thing fs has done that I don't like is complain about us attacking them again. They have 4 ww of science and lots of honor. We want it. This line of thinking that 2 kds just warred so auto cf is nonsense.

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Give it a stop, this is embarrassing.

'They have 4 ww of science and lots of honor.'

That is why I got 4x bounced on elites in.

Most kingdoms during their relaxing off-ages do stuff to build friendships. I guess you feel taking an off age is a time to tear down relationships and burn bridges. #NestaStrategy

You guys were also sitting pumping sci and gc for like 2 weeks before our conflict. You went into our conflict with what 80M gc more? 100M? you had all the advantages and you laugh at us for overcoming all those advantages to win the war because you still made out OK in the end? What a joke. Just call it for what it is, you are calling this a Round 2 to try and avoid outside hits while you prep for spartans, and it just so happens to help that you get to have a little revenge in the meantime to start to feel manly again.

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Originally Posted by jmiedema

Most kingdoms during their relaxing off-ages do stuff to build friendships. I guess you feel taking an off age is a time to tear down relationships and burn bridges. #NestaStrategy

You guys were also sitting pumping sci and gc for like 2 weeks before our conflict. You went into our conflict with what 80M gc more? 100M? you had all the advantages and you laugh at us for overcoming all those advantages to win the war because you still made out OK in the end? What a joke. Just call it for what it is, you are calling this a Round 2 to try and avoid outside hits while you prep for spartans, and it just so happens to help that you get to have a little revenge in the meantime to start to feel manly again.

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No, no, no the lies! STOP!

You have a strategy that's great for wars, not so great outside wars. Ergo you'd like to play this game purely within the boundaries of those wars.

The game doesn't exist purely within those boundaries. Even if Pyro are doing it with an ulterior motive, they are still doing it because you gave them 20k freeaking acres to do it with.

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Originally Posted by Leonidas

You have a strategy that's great for wars, not so great outside wars. Ergo you'd like to play this game purely within the boundaries of those wars.

The game doesn't exist purely within those boundaries. Even if Pyro are doing it with an ulterior motive, they are still doing it because you gave them 20k freeaking acres to do it with.

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i believe we have done enough stuff oow to know quite well about it.. pyro already had the same %-size advantage against us before we agreed to war, so they didnt need us to give them that size again to do it.. they could do the same earlier too, but they know well enough that such actions have long-term consequences - they only adhere this route because of a broken ego&pride, and another war agreement knocking on the door..

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Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN

i believe we have done enough stuff oow to know quite well about it.. pyro already had the same %-size advantage against us before we agreed to war, so they didnt need us to give them that size again to do it.. they could do the same earlier too, but they know well enough that such actions have long-term consequences - they only adhere this route because of a broken ego&pride, and another war agreement knocking on the door..

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You're missing my point. I'm not wondering why they are doing it. Obviously petty revenge plays a part.

I'm asking why you think they should stop, given that you gave them the power to do this to you.

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Originally Posted by Leonidas

You're missing my point. I'm not wondering why they are doing it. Obviously petty revenge plays a part.

I'm asking why you think they should stop, given that you gave them the power to do this to you.

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every growth kd has the power to the exact thing to any war kd, yet none of them do it.. actually, war kds dont do it to each other neither when they have the power.. there must be a reason huh?

Sampuan,

I explained my thoughts on this precisely. Please stop stating things contrary to the unambiguous statement of what is intended. You thought of the conflict only in terms of the war and then everyone going their separate ways. Was I ambiguous when I stated that I would get back whatever I wanted if you dragged the war? Call it petty if you must, but I think we should get back our science and so on so that we are not unduly injured by your choices. This is how we are going about it instead of sitting and pumping for weeks on end. We have more fun this way, just as you had more fun by dragging the war. Look at it this way, once we have stripped you out, you will be a more appealing war target and can get wars more easily.

:D

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Sampuan,

I explained my thoughts on this precisely. Please stop stating things contrary to the unambiguous statement of what is intended. You thought of the conflict only in terms of the war and then everyone going their separate ways. Was I ambiguous when I stated that I would get back whatever I wanted if you dragged the war? Call it petty if you must, but I think we should get back our science and so on so that we are not unduly injured by your choices. This is how we are going about it instead of sitting and pumping for weeks on end. We have more fun this way, just as you had more fun by dragging the war. Look at it this way, once we have stripped you out, you will be a more appealing war target and can get wars more easily.

:D

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go back a few posts, and read my analysis on your 'genius' science farming techniques..

also, we didnt 'drag' the war, we won it and your enormous ego is broken into a thousand pieces, sad but true..

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Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN

every growth kd has the power to the exact thing to any war kd, yet none of them do it.. actually, war kds dont do it to each other neither when they have the power.. there must be a reason huh?

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Because growth kingdoms have an actual target for the age and getting stuck in this kind of conflict is only bad for them?

We have seen lots of growth kingdoms drop out of the crown race and proceed to seek revenge. Pew Pew and Simians, then Simians and Pew Pew, for instance.

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Originally Posted by Leonidas

Because growth kingdoms have an actual target for the age and getting stuck in this kind of conflict is only bad for them?

We have seen lots of growth kingdoms drop out of the crown race and proceed to seek revenge. Pew Pew and Simians, then Simians and Pew Pew, for instance.

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revenge is often sought after some kind of ****play, or a long-standing grudge, or a long-term hostility - not because a kd has beaten you in war..

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Originally Posted by jmiedema

If every kingdom that left war from a position of strength did this to their opposing kingdom, that would definitely not be healthy for the game.

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If this happened more often when the kingdom in position of strength were the one who withdrew, it would most likely be very healthy for the game. :)

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Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN

revenge is often sought after some kind of ****play, or a long-standing grudge, or a long-term hostility - not because a kd has beaten you in war..

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You're assuming that this is revenge on their part.

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Originally Posted by Gorash

Give it a stop, this is embarrassing.

'They have 4 ww of science and lots of honor.'

That is why I got 4x bounced on elites in.

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You always leave elites home when in hostile?

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Originally Posted by Leonidas

You have a strategy that's great for wars, not so great outside wars. Ergo you'd like to play this game purely within the boundaries of those wars.

The game doesn't exist purely within those boundaries. Even if Pyro are doing it with an ulterior motive, they are still doing it because you gave them 20k freeaking acres to do it with.

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Rofl qft. Epic comeback win!

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Sampuan,

I explained my thoughts on this precisely. Please stop stating things contrary to the unambiguous statement of what is intended. You thought of the conflict only in terms of the war and then everyone going their separate ways. Was I ambiguous when I stated that I would get back whatever I wanted if you dragged the war? Call it petty if you must, but I think we should get back our science and so on so that we are not unduly injured by your choices. This is how we are going about it instead of sitting and pumping for weeks on end. We have more fun this way, just as you had more fun by dragging the war. Look at it this way, once we have stripped you out, you will be a more appealing war target and can get wars more easily.

:D

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Qft, they should release their dspecs, bounce attack their elites and be on land def to get this over with asap.

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Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN

revenge is often sought after some kind of ****play, or a long-standing grudge, or a long-term hostility - not because a kd has beaten you in war..

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What you percieve as revenge everyone with a brain percieves as just doin a bit of farming. If you didnt want to get farmed you should have closed relations. You are like literally the worst monarch.

Instead of releasing your defense you keep crying and whining on the forums. Its hilarious how Nesta hasn't posted here once and you continually publicly insult him just so you can make yourself feel better over my comments. Guess what all your whining in here and insulting of Nesta in here is doing you no favors. The only way you are going to close this out is by talking to the person you insult over and over and over. Pathetic.

No, he is not the worst monarch. Lets call it like it is.

Nesta operated under a paradigm in which people do not sacrifice their core leaving their TM's exposed. That left him blind to what FS was doing and the crew was too slow to react to adjust to a long drawn out war.

Sampuan is operating under the paradigm where at war end, everything is settled. That left him blind to the fact that he has undefended resources that people would want to take. Whether they do it in the most efficient means/hit or in the most efficient means in terms of crippling them for easy feeding is beside the real problem that he has.

When interpreting this, Sampuan views this as, our hits are inefficient because we did not feed in a NW efficiency order. Just as Nesta did not see FS as playing for anything other than to drag for 50% win because he did not see they were going for a different mid-term war efficiency and were willing to sacrifice long-term power to achieve it.

Both are myopic.

Okay we get it, you dont care about oow, then why do you keep coming to this thread? Just get farmed like a noob, nobody cares, nobody is going to help you, nobody likes you. Honestly thanks for letting us know you dont care about being a rag doll, makes us sleep better at night when we oversend offense and leaving no defense home.

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Originally Posted by azsxdcfv

You're assuming that this is revenge on their part.

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it is. sheister confirmed a long grudge for 'dragging the war'. which is rather moot because it apparently wasnt a drag. Pyro couldn't outplay FS so they opted to go this route. its pathetic that a kd emerging from the (superior?) whoring tier needed full CF and 20k+ acres to subdue their grudge.

and then there's that loudmouth who remained quiet when Pyro WD'd and does a multi post when they're in an advantageous position to farm. there's also that guy who was against bottom feeding / farming one age, and does exactly that the next, claiming obedience to his KD.

RICH!

You did drag it. You won as a result but you dragged the war. It cost us time and we are reclaiming that time. If you need to make that seem sinister that is on you.

So why was it okey for FS to harass ED for a war when ED didnt want to (and not okey for ED to payback the age after)?

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Originally Posted by Sheister

You did drag it. You won as a result but you dragged the war. It cost us time and we are reclaiming that time. If you need to make that seem sinister that is on you.

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Claiming hostile protection against a kingdom that hasn't and won't attack or op you back (with CF offer on the table) while using the time to buy more time before you go into a "real conflict".

Sounds like you are using this hostile to get all the benefits that fake wars were actioned on to get rid of. A protected time that you could pump to gain time and an advantage over a kingdom bigger than you (spartans).

At the very least FS should be able to make a binding statement or "agreement" on the forums to the people of utopia stating they have not and will not do any offensive actions against pyro. I don't see why another kingdom wouldn't be allowed to hit into Pyro's fake hostile, and if FS then were to make any offensive actions against pyro it would be considered a deal break and actionable.

This idea of one sided hostiles (where one kingdom makes zero offensive actions to the other) being protected under claims of hostile is nonsense.

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Originally Posted by jmiedema

Claiming hostile protection against a kingdom that hasn't and won't attack or op you back (with CF offer on the table) while using the time to buy more time before you go into a "real conflict".

Sounds like you are using this hostile to get all the benefits that fake wars were actioned on to get rid of. A protected time that you could pump to gain time and an advantage over a kingdom bigger than you (spartans).

At the very least FS should be able to make a binding statement or "agreement" on the forums to the people of utopia stating they have not and will not do any offensive actions against pyro. I don't see why another kingdom wouldn't be allowed to hit into Pyro's fake hostile, and if FS then were to make any offensive actions against pyro it would be considered a deal break and actionable.

This idea of one sided hostiles (where one kingdom makes zero offensive actions to the other) being protected under claims of hostile is nonsense.

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lol, i hope jmiedema dont play in FS. :) That whole post is so hilarious consider FS past history. :)

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Originally Posted by Korp

So why was it okey for FS to harass ED for a war when ED didnt want to (and not okey for ED to payback the age after)?

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There is a difference between a hostile where a kingdom has hit back, and both sides are participating, than one where one kingdom is 150% their size and just manhandling them without any aggressive actions being returned to them.

It is also different when 2 kingdoms enter hostilities at an even footing with an agreement that it goes to war, then one kingdom doesnt like how hostile has gone and desides they don't want to war.