Emeriti VS 7:15

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Originally Posted by Meep

Well, there's a difference between poor sportsmanship, and what I'd consider 'actionable'

The only reason there's even any moral dilemma at all there from Havoc's perspective is that they were allied with Sanc.

If you got robbed after war and had trouble CFing out some other 3rd party KD after a fight, I wouldn't see any expectation for Havoc to reset notice or give you more time, unless specified in your deal.

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Deal terms with Havoc included: no notice in Hostile/War/post War. Sanctuary robing started right after our post war, resulted wave from us and wave back from sanctuary. Havoc came to try notice us after all this. We was already in ACTIVE hostile/b2b war with Sanctuary. Based to deal terms they CANT notice us and waving 48h later was pure deal break. All this happen because ABS had under control 4 from TOP 5 Kds and all rest was way to small to step in. Its why they did all this.

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Originally Posted by Elit

Deal terms with Havoc included: no notice in Hostile/War/post War. Sanctuary robing started right after our post war, resulted wave from us and wave back from sanctuary. Havoc came to try notice us after all this. We was already in ACTIVE hostile/b2b war with Sanctuary. Based to deal terms they CANT notice us and waving 48h later was pure deal break. All this happen because ABS had under control 4 from TOP 5 Kds and all rest was way to small to step in. Its why they did all this.

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Didn't havoc tell you they were coming for you after the sanc war, before your sanc war even ended.

This is actually a subject of debate for me lately.

What is the 'intent' of 'No notice into EOW' in deals.

The intent is clearly not 'have this stupid race where you have to sit at your computer 24/7 waiting for people to drop early and immediately get a notice in before they can get a hostile, when the game doesn't even immediately update KD pages to show that information' That's stupid.

In my eyes, the intent of that term is that you have eow+notice total amount of time to prepare for a fight, correct?

AKA, I can't just give you my 72h notice the tick someone WDs from war, and then wave you the tick you exit EOW, you instead get your 72h eow, + my 72h notice.

So, if that's the intent of that term, then why does it matter if people give 'notice of notice'. The only way that notice wouldn't be validly served is if the receiving KD is trying to get around the intent of the deal, and we all know what I think about people making deals and then not wanting to be held to them.

Giving notice of notice is if anything a convenience of affirmative heads up that 'yes in fact, we are coming after you'

Nowhere in deals does it say I can't tell you in advance when my notice is happening, just that my notice can't start in hostile/war/eow.

Why are people so hellbent on playing in a situation that encourages ****ty play?

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As a more specific question about your situation.

You knew you had a notice and conflict from havoc coming, Sanc had nothing on the horizon.

Isn't it YOUR responsibility to figure out your diplo and CF other threats when you have a conflict coming, not theirs?

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Didn't havoc tell you they were coming for you after the sanc war, before your sanc war even ended.

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So, dibs is a thing? ...

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Isn't it YOUR responsibility to figure out your diplo and CF other threats when you have a conflict coming, not theirs?

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Why should they cater to the exact whims of someone that did notice them? Seems rather stupid to me? "Oh **** they noticed us better stop everything else we planned to do and just sit here and wait for them!"

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Originally Posted by Korp

So, dibs is a thing? ...




Why should they cater to the exact whims of someone that did notice them? Seems rather stupid to me? "Oh **** they noticed us better stop everything else we planned to do and just sit here and wait for them!"

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How is notice dibs? Anyone else is free to notice too

Notice doesnt mean you have to fight, notice means our cf is going to be dropped at this date, and unless it would be ****playing you (waving into an active conflict), im probably waving you.

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Originally Posted by Meep

How is notice dibs? Anyone else is free to notice too

Notice doesnt mean you have to fight, notice means our cf is going to be dropped at this date, and unless it would be ****playing you (waving into an active conflict), im probably waving you.

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But you just wrote that Elit should have taken care of all other threats and everything else they planned just to cater to Havoc cause havoc had noticed them.

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Originally Posted by Meep

Didn't havoc tell you they were coming for you after the sanc war, before your sanc war even ended.

This is actually a subject of debate for me lately.

What is the 'intent' of 'No notice into EOW' in deals.

The intent is clearly not 'have this stupid race where you have to sit at your computer 24/7 waiting for people to drop early and immediately get a notice in before they can get a hostile, when the game doesn't even immediately update KD pages to show that information' That's stupid.

In my eyes, the intent of that term is that you have eow+notice total amount of time to prepare for a fight, correct?

AKA, I can't just give you my 72h notice the tick someone WDs from war, and then wave you the tick you exit EOW, you instead get your 72h eow, + my 72h notice.

So, if that's the intent of that term, then why does it matter if people give 'notice of notice'. The only way that notice wouldn't be validly served is if the receiving KD is trying to get around the intent of the deal, and we all know what I think about people making deals and then not wanting to be held to them.

Giving notice of notice is if anything a convenience of affirmative heads up that 'yes in fact, we are coming after you'

Nowhere in deals does it say I can't tell you in advance when my notice is happening, just that my notice can't start in hostile/war/eow.

Why are people so hellbent on playing in a situation that encourages ****ty play?

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As a more specific question about your situation.

You knew you had a notice and conflict from havoc coming, Sanc had nothing on the horizon.

Isn't it YOUR responsibility to figure out your diplo and CF other threats when you have a conflict coming, not theirs?

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Age was very much static in TOP. AMA had EOA CF with Rage, we had 1-2 more weeks CF with HoH and our CF was close to expire or expire with Havoc leave only 72h notice. Sanctuary just loss his war from us and was clear they are not in position to jump on us and war. From AMA view all what we needed to win age was to War Havoc and we had all objective advantages, bigger cows and core so its was much more easy compare war from disadvantage with Sanctuary. For this reason we had zero interest to go after Sanctuary and i was looking for CF them. Dorje normally is all time in Utoned but gone off from irc. Its noting something strange too. Leaders after long hostile+war (its was hell long) normally get burned and get low active for few days. So i gave him time to relax and came in irc. I had zero reasons to expect any aggression from them because its will put us in active hostile and prevent Havoc to notice us. Second war with Sanctuary will be totally farm war. For this we left post war in no war build and clear pumping mode preparing for Havoc and waiting to get notice. Its when Sanctuary unexpected did massive ops on us right after post war having almost all his Kd online. When you see 20+ on its clear sing they are looking for fight and we had like half KD online. So we accepted b2b fight and waved them instant and they did instant retals. From here we have active hostile and aggressor was Sanctuary = ally to Havoc. If situation was reversed and AMA being aggressor you can claim we attempt to dodge Havoc, but its not and we have legit hostile/2 kingdoms going b2b war. Havoc wish to give us notice cant have priority over legit b2b hostile/war, special when losing side is aggressor and ally to Havoc.

About Havoc intention to notice us, yes i have know for it like 3-4-5 weeks early. Same going for Sanctuary. Both they know we will notice them if they dont notice us when CF expire. Age was very static in TOP. Havoc had mad talk to us every time when we hit randoms and claim dibs on all randoms and ask for return land we gained or they will deal break us. How you understand i cant take serious all this talk. Just because they are mad don't mean they can notice us before CF expire wen we have extra terms. All mad talk cant be considered for served notice. When ppl are mad they can say anything, you hold till they calm and talk after it again.

Important part is Havoc didn't had window to gave us notice after our CF expired. Its all what really mater about situation.
How you see I blame for it not Havoc alone but ABS for power play us. When we had legit b2b hostile/war they deny our right to keep fight Sanctuary when they are aggressor. After Havoc deal break and wave us we still declare war from clear zero chances and wared them. After war end we proposed CF and inform Havoc both AMA and HoH have intention to war and we agree for it. Again ABS/Havoc decide for us: they told b2b war have priority over our agree war with HoH. So you can see clear double standards.

I pointed many times ABS don't have single age when one from ABS Kds win crown and all rest fail in chart. You can ask yourself why they cant success alone in top when so many indi KDs did it.

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Originally Posted by Korp

But you just wrote that Elit should have taken care of all other threats and everything else they planned just to cater to Havoc cause havoc had noticed them.

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He should have, doesn't mean he has to.

He still doesn't have to fight.

Havoc still doesn't have to keep him CF'd.

If he doesn't CF people and can't prep, and Havoc is in a situation to own him, oh well.

If he finds a fight elsewhere, oh well tough luck havoc.

Do I get to wave everyone who robs me and just never get noticed?

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Originally Posted by Meep

He should have, doesn't mean he has to.

He still doesn't have to fight.

Havoc still doesn't have to keep him CF'd.

If he doesn't CF people and can't prep, and Havoc is in a situation to own him, oh well.

If he finds a fight elsewhere, oh well tough luck havoc.

Do I get to wave everyone who robs me and just never get noticed?

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So you think shady tactics used by allies are okey, given the history that you guys trick people into bouncing to win wars as well its not surprising i guess. Anything to win right? ;)

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Originally Posted by Elit

Age was very much static in TOP. AMA had EOA CF with Rage, we had 1-2 more weeks CF with HoH and our CF was close to expire or expire with Havoc leave only 72h notice. Sanctuary just loss his war from us and was clear they are not in position to jump on us and war. From AMA view all what we needed to win age was to War Havoc and we had all objective advantages, bigger cows and core so its was much more easy compare war from disadvantage with Sanctuary. For this reason we had zero interest to go after Sanctuary and i was looking for CF them. Dorje normally is all time in Utoned but gone off from irc. Its noting something strange too. Leaders after long hostile+war (its was hell long) normally get burned and get low active for few days. So i gave him time to relax and came in irc. I had zero reasons to expect any aggression from them because its will put us in active hostile and prevent Havoc to notice us. Second war with Sanctuary will be totally farm war. For this we left post war in no war build and clear pumping mode preparing for Havoc and waiting to get notice. Its when Sanctuary unexpected did massive ops on us right after post war having almost all his Kd online. When you see 20+ on its clear sing they are looking for fight and we had like half KD online. So we accepted b2b fight and waved them instant and they did instant retals. From here we have active hostile and aggressor was Sanctuary = ally to Havoc. If situation was reversed and AMA being aggressor you can claim we attempt to dodge Havoc, but its not and we have legit hostile/2 kingdoms going b2b war. Havoc wish to give us notice cant have priority over legit b2b hostile/war, special when losing side is aggressor and ally to Havoc.

About Havoc intention to notice us, yes i have know for it like 3-4-5 weeks early. Same going for Sanctuary. Both they know we will notice them if they dont notice us when CF expire. Age was very static in TOP. Havoc had mad talk to us every time when we hit randoms and claim dibs on all randoms and ask for return land we gained or they will deal break us. How you understand i cant take serious all this talk. Just because they are mad don't mean they can notice us before CF expire wen we have extra terms. All mad talk cant be considered for served notice. When ppl are mad they can say anything, you hold till they calm and talk after it again.

Important part is Havoc didn't had window to gave us notice after our CF expired. Its all what really mater about situation.
How you see I blame for it not Havoc alone but ABS for power play us. When we had legit b2b hostile/war they deny our right to keep fight Sanctuary when they are aggressor. After Havoc deal break and wave us we still declare war from clear zero chances and wared them. After war end we proposed CF and inform Havoc both AMA and HoH have intention to war and we agree for it. Again ABS/Havoc decide for us: they told b2b war have priority over our agree war with HoH. So you can see clear double standards.

I pointed many times ABS don't have single age when one from ABS Kds win crown and all rest fail in chart. You can ask yourself why they cant success alone in top when so many indi KDs did it.

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But you're missing the point.

It doesn't matter whether Havoc tells you in eow that they're noticing you effective end of eow.

If Havoc and Sanc want to powerplay you, Sanc can just wait 5 seconds for havoc to send you notice, and then start robbing you.

The effect is the same and changes nothing.

They were going to powerplay you whether they notice you in advance or not.

Saying 'consider my notice starting at the end of your EOW' is no different than me messaging you 5 seconds after the end of eow.

The only time it makes a difference is if you want to drop eow early and immediately jump into another conflict. Which is clearly not the point of having 'no notice in EOW' deals, as those deals are meant to make sure you have adequate eow+notice time to prep for having a CF going away.

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Originally Posted by Korp

So you think shady tactics used by allies are okey, given the history that you guys trick people into bouncing to win wars as well its not surprising i guess. Anything to win right? ;)

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I am meep, I don't speak for The Inglorious Mangoes, I don't speak for any KD, I speak my opinion.

I think that if you know you are fighting an alliance that uses shady tactics, you get allies of your own and out-shady them. You make better deals to get around their shady tactics.

I don't approve of Octo's ****, I've said this before.

I'm primarily interested in having big deep prep wars with top KD level activity/leadership.

And yet every single age we whore, everyone wants CFs, and everyone wants to dodge

I want to fight floggers and binar/dorjes, and PersainCATs.

But getting those wars to happen on remotely even ground is impossible because nobody wants the hard fight (and that includes our LS!), they want to dodge the hard fight and find the easiest fight instead.

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Originally Posted by Meep

Do I get to wave everyone who robs me and just never get noticed?

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Not every one. Just if you get massive ops from KD you just wared this clear say they are look for b2b. You cant go in other relation before both Kds agree on CF. Its why ppl set in terms : no notice in active hostile/war/post war. No one want to be in 2vs1 relation. When you agree on this deal its work both ways. You cant get notice but you cant send notice in active relation. You need to respect deal you agree.

Take right now. I'd love to fight someone with even terms, but nobody wants to go.

We haven't taxed a single person this age, every CF with top KDs have been given for free.

The #2 and#4 KDs want to run off and fight, even if we give them extra time to prep in exchange for an agreed war.

The #3 KD is begging both of those KDs not to fight us.

The #3 KD doesn't want to fight us either.

I'm more than willing to be flexible, give people time, hell, if it moves things forward we'd probably be more than happy to fund someone's prep to some extent to help make things more fair.

But I'm not going to sit here and watch people dodge for the rest of the age looking for a friendly farm out, and I have zero expectation that any of the other 3 KDs would offer to do the same in return after that farm out.

And based on prior experience, I have no reason to believe people are going to be any more willing to fight later either.

So why should I CF people? Why should I not notice them and tell them too bad if they don't want me to wave them?

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Originally Posted by Elit

Not every one. Just if you get massive ops from KD you just wared this clear say they are look for b2b. You cant go in other relation before both Kds agree on CF. Its why ppl set in terms : no notice in active hostile/war/post war. No one want to be in 2vs1 relation. When you agree on this deal its work both ways. You cant get notice but you cant send notice in active relation. You need to respect deal you agree.

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So Sanc doesn't op until after Havoc notices.

Powerplay still accomplished.

Literally no effective difference between pre-notice and actual notice, they are still able to powerplay you within the confines of their respective deals.

How is this not painfully obvious?

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Originally Posted by Meep

The #2 and#4 KDs want to run off and fight, even if we give them extra time to prep in exchange for an agreed war.

The #3 KD is begging both of those KDs not to fight us.

The #3 KD doesn't want to fight us either.

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Errr what? So you just posted you don't speak for the kd or the leadership of the kd, and you run your mouth off here?

When did the #3 kd beg #2#4 to not fight you? And when did the #3 kd tell you they don't want to fight?

You better double check your facts before you run your mouth off here just because you're sitting on the first spot for now. Fwiw I gave a y4 offer to your kd at Oop. You guys wanted y6 and I agreed to it. And now it's barely y5 and you're making these claims?

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Originally Posted by 13nesta13

Errr what? So you just posted you don't speak for the kd or the leadership of the kd, and you run your mouth off here?

When did the #3 kd beg #2#4 to not fight you? And when did the #3 kd tell you they don't want to fight?

You better double check your facts before you run your mouth off here just because you're sitting on the first spot for now. Fwiw I gave a y4 offer to your kd at Oop. You guys wanted y6 and I agreed to it. And now it's barely y5 and you're saying we don't want to fight you?

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I run my mouth regardless of where I am because that's what I do.

Surely you know this by now.

You're also not the only member of your KD.

I'm sure we'll be more than happy to fight you Jan1YR6 if Divinity and Barco end up warring, more likely you'll try to go wave spartans or stall war like you did to emeriti last age after you're losing.

Hell, if you want some gold to prep quicker and move that date up since you had to spend your money half training for emeriti and then sleepy, I'm sure I could convince people here to accommodate that too!